Not putting the man in your life at the centre of your life

[BasilBabyEater]

I came across this really interesting article this morning and thought I'd share

feministcurrent.com/7784/on-feminism-writing-and-doing-womanhood-wrong/

Am still thinking about it so am not going to comment but thought others might like to mull it over too.

[peteypiranha]

What kind of examples are you talking about?

[BalloonSlayer]

They learn to be ?forgettable supporting characters? to their male lead: ?Men grow up expecting to be the hero of their own story. Women grow up expecting to be the supporting actress in somebody else?s,?

When I was with my ex-husband, at the last gasp of our marriage, I used to say to friends that if someone had made a film of my life, the person playing me would not have been the star. The star would have been the person playing him. The person playing me would have been "co-starring" or "with."

Funny she says the exact same thing. (Great minds? )

Ex-H wasn't particularly sexist though. I think that he just wanted to do what he wanted to do, and if I wanted to do something with him, then it would be accompanying him to his hobby, seeing his friends, basically tagging along while he did what he liked . . . things I wanted to do I did on my own.

After him I went out with a lovely bloke who would probably call himself a feminist. He had an action-man hobby which really wasn't my cup of tea. He would go out and do his hobby and I would go to his house and wait for him . . . people always asked when I was going to start doing the hobby too so I could do it with him. Erm no. I put that one down to him having been single for a long time and set in his ways (he was) rather than sexism. However, my Mum has a tendency to fawn over men and I wonder if I didn't expect much from blokes as a result.

DH loves doing things together and I am the hero of my own story again!

[AnyOldFucker]

BS, that is fundamentally sexist though, is it not ? That your exH thought what he wanted to do was more important than what you wanted to do

of course, give and take is required. But when it's a pattern of behaviour, it is sexist. Men's interests take precedence.

[YouMakeMeWannaLaLa]

petey Well the only other option would be to start a relationship with a genuinely feminist man (like you have) and as I said, I don't think I've ever met one.

I can live in hope, but not too optimistic. Will just enjoy being my own 'leading man' for now.

[Blistory]

Talking about lady doctors, women drivers, telling young boys to be strong and not cry, telling young girls they're pretty, assuming women are the more natural parent, automatically assigning domestic chores by gender, assuming the man will drive, judging women who are drunk more harshly, telling someone to man up, assuming a man will protect a woman, minimising sexual assault, not recognising sexual assault, laughing at sexist jokes, not being aware that a joke is sexist, giving a woman away, assuming the man should propose, taking your husbands name as a default, etc etc etc etc

See LRD's thread on all the everyday little stuff that is so commonplace that it's barely recognised.

[peteypiranha]

It is 1000% sexist if a man says anything he wants to do is more important than what you do. A mans needs definitely do not come first to the detriment of everyone else. You have to think what is he doing for me? Not should I be doing more for him. Men respect women that do that a lot more, and the ones that dont arent worth your time.

Glad it all worked out in the end balloonslayer.

[peteypiranha]

Dh doesnt do any of that tbh. I dont either.

[Blistory]

"you only get treated how you allow yourself to be"

You do it, you just don't recognise it.

[peteypiranha]

I wouldnt say any of those thinhs you have written are normal, but I didnt reallu grow up in a conventional family. My mum is the leader of everything, and always has been so I do realise I am priviledged in that sense as I have subconsiously copied everything they did.

[BalloonSlayer]

Yes I agree it is sexist to think that what he wanted to do was more important than what I wanted to do. I am not sure he thought that though, his hobby was something I knew about when I met him, it was part of him, and I don't have any hobbies like that.*

When men have "hobbies" that take them out of the house, as my Dad did, and my ex-H did and the ex-boyf did, and you, the woman, do not, the hobbies do seem more important. It would look a bit weird to say "Well I went out to xxx with you last week, so this week we are both going to stay in and read books and then talk about them."

So you end up feeling like a spoilsport for stopping them going out to participate in their hobby, a bore for not having an out-of-house hobby of your own, or bored shitless sitting on the touchline/whatever watching them just so you can spend some time "together."

*I suspect that my Dad's all-encompassing hobby made me think it was normal for men to be constantly off "doing something" . . . I must admit that round about the time Ex-H and I broke up it dawned on me that he was a crashing bore who talked about little except his hobby and in that respect very like my Dad.

Thank goodness my DD has DH as a Dad!

[sameoldIggi]

Balloonslayer you have put that so well.
I struggle to get equal free time as the things I want to do are not date/time specific, whereas his (sport) are. So he "has" to be out on Saturday afternoon, but I can spend time reading/go to the cinema etc any old time. And then it rarely happens.
I do collude with this. Before children, I didn't mind as I liked the independence. Now the ways seem to be set.

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

Interesting - we are on a trip right now driven by DH's hobby. I'm happy to be here and I know if I said "let's go to
X next time so that the kids can share in my hobby" he'd be happy to go - but I can't see that ever occurring to me as a "right" - so it's a self-fulfilling thing.

[BasilBabyEater]

I'm with Youmakemewannalala re relationships with men.

For many years I compromised because I assumed you had to have a partner, that the basic domestic unit was two people.

And now I have the self-confidence and feminist analysis of society to realise that's crap, I look around at all the men I've met in the last 5 years or so and there is not one of them I could describe as a man I would like to share my space with.

I don't completely dismiss the idea of being able to have a relationship with a man again; but I know the chance of me finding one who I could even tolerate, let alone with whom I could enjoy spending time and energy, is about as likely as winning the lottery. And tbh, I'd rather do that.

[peteypiranha]

Sameoldiggi - Can you not arrange things with friends or alonw and just go? Things like the cinema just say going cinema at 3 this afternoon and just go. It is definitely your right to a social life.

I went out last night and didnt get home until 4am. I havent done one single chore and have barely stood up today as its my day off. Dh has done the lot, but he knows when its his turn he can do the same.

[sameoldIggi]

Peter I think we need a three-day weekend - a day when he can do his stuff, one for me to do mine, and a third for doing something as a family! You're right, nothing to stop me going out on the other weekend day, but it does sacrifice doing much together with the dcs (who are too small to have their own plans) never mind getting anything done around the house.
I do get tired of fitting in with him. He points to how much less he does his hobby compared to before dcs, but my socialising etc has dropped a hundred percent more.

[peteypiranha]

I was mainly talking about one doing one sat one doing the next etc so you have another day to do a family day out. We have at the very least a family day out once a week, but usually more frequently as a lot of the things I do are at night. Dh wont commit to anything that is a regularly weekly thing.

With what dads did when I was growing up. My dad did nights on own with us every week as my mum did nights. Did all packed lunches, can cook anything, did all cooking for xmas dinners and family function meals, took me, my brother out all the time, and often our friends to, did weekly food shop, and did all drivng us to our extra curricular activities. He went to every parents evening, play and open day that I ever had.

[AnnieLobeseder]

We live in a sexist society, and we are all products of it. My DH comes from one of the least sexist cultures I've ever seen, but it's still by no means perfect. I've always been strong and independent, but still, despite this, DH and I find ourselves slipping into the traditional men's/women's roles in our relationship sometimes. I only had my full feminist awakening last year, DH hasn't had his yet, though hopefully my rants about sexist BS I read about are having some effect on him!

I'm waffling though - I'm trying to paint a picture of a relationship where we're both intelligent people, equal in terms of childcare/housework, but still both products of the society we live in, which means we're not as always as equal as we could be, and sometimes need to step back and make adjustments.

DH is always willing to listen, always willing to make that adjustment if I tell him I feel to much of the domestic burden is slipping onto my shoulders. But it needs awareness and vigilance, and I suspect the same applies to any relationship unless the man has truly had a feminist awakening. And if I, as a woman, didn't have mine until I was nearly 40, it's a bit much to expect DH, as a man, to immediately have one too.

It certainly is comforting to me to be very aware that I don't need DH in any way, as much as I do want him in my life. But if I were to find that he were hindering me in my ambitions, my happiness, if I were having to give up any part of myself to "keep" him, I would cut him loose. And I'm sure he's well aware of that.

I wish he liked tattoos more though - that's the one area where I have compromised and respected his feelings, and not got nearly as many as I would like to have.

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere!!

[BasilBabyEater]

"So what are you looking for in a man? What would he have to be like to be tolerable?"

He would have to be a) intelligent and b) a genuine feminist ally and c) look like George Clooney.



OK maybe I'd drop c).

But seriously, most men aren't feminist allies. They pay lip service to equality, but as soon as they are even vaguely challenged on real, substantive issues where they feel their privilege is being threatened, they suddenly reveal themselves as bog-standard sexists who only want equality to go as far as is convenient for them and no further. They're not really capable of thinking outside the parameters of patriarchal assumptions and I've got to a stage where I find that really boring and limited and vaguely disappointing. I used to have such a high opinion of men.

I literally only know one man whom I would describe as genuinely understanding feminist issues and aware of his own privilege as a white educated able-bodied man and as he's my brother and I don't fancy him and we're not wierdies, he's off my candidate list. I don't mean a man has to go on demos etc. - just even understanding what feminism is and acknowledging his own privilege would be enough, but I literally don't know any men like that. They're all very nice, but just not very interesting - stuck inside the patriarchal thought-prison.

[TheDoctrineOfJetlag]

Yy annieL

[AnyOldFucker]

My DH comes close

I have taught him most of what he knows though

I think the best we can hope for is that they listen properly listen and reflect

I don't want a lapdog who does what I tell him to, or pretends to think the way he thinks feminists expect him to

I want him to come to those conclusions by himself, even if it takes a while

and it sometimes does...

an inherently good guy is half the battle, IMO

the rest, he has to want to get there himself

[peteypiranha]

We have never done traditional roles at home, but dh had 3 months off when dd1 was born and so did everything for me. I would say overall I do less than dh, as my career is more important. Dh came to me fully trained, but I am a work in progress.

[BrianButterfield]

What I'm seeing a lot of is sexist behaviour being enabled by female partners and framed as strength on their parts.

For example, a friend of DH's has moved house recently. She mentioned the house was near to the cricket and rugby clubs (her DH plays both). DH said "well, what difference does that make to him? He won't be going much," (they have a toddler and a baby on the way) to which she got very indignant and said "yes, he goes every weekend because I LET him!"

She was making her DH's abandonment of the family for sport every weekend out to be her decision, as if she were in charge! DH surprises people regularly by choosing to be with his family at weekends instead of out of the house; the idea of a man choosing to spend time with his wife and child is actually seen as noteworthy and praiseworthy by many.