Is it possible to be a good Christian at the same time as being a feminist?

[SummerHoliDidi]

I count myself as a feminist, and am also a Catholic, but I am finding it increasingly difficult to be both.

I sat through a very Christian wedding (much more overtly Christian than I have ever been to before) yesterday, where there were a LOT of references to the bible passage that talks about women submitting to their husbands but men only having to love their wives. I found myself wanting to tell the minister to fuck off, which is hardly a Christian thing to want to do. The man is the head of the household - fuck off. If a man loves his wife and only wants to do the best for her what wife wouldn't submit? - fuck off. Hearing "obey" in the vows - fuck off. Having children is God's will - fuck off. The bride being "given away" by her father - fuck off.

I appreciate that this particular wedding is not typical of Christianity as a whole, and my friend has actively chosen to have this type of ceremony (she was always very sensible back when we were at uni, but "found God" a couple of years ago and I hadn't realised quite how much she's bought into it).

How do other Christian feminists reconcile both viewpoints, or do you find yourself picking and choosing which bits to take from each?

[BendyBusBuggy]

I believe in God and think women should have equal rights. No problem at all in my mind .

I find it hard to imagine Jesus having a point of view that women should not have equal rights?

[SummerHoliDidi]

I truly don't believe that Jesus had any views about women being less than men, like daftdame said, he had female friends and spoke to women after his resurrection.

What I am having a a problem with is the structures of the church, and the literal interpretation some Christians have of certain bible passages.

But things like the "if a man loves his wife and truly wants what is best for her, what woman wouldn't submit?" (a quote from the sermon yesterday) I don't agree with that at all. What if I disagree with my husband about what is best for me? I am an adult and am perfectly capable of making my own decisions about what is best for me, I don't need to submit to a man's views about what that is.

[SummerHoliDidi]

Laurie I think I'm having a problem with my Catholic church in that we don't have women in the same leadership roles as men, we have men as priests but women can't be RC priests.

Maybe I need to change my branch of Christianity, although the congregation and priest at my current church actually fit with my views quite well, it's the wider Catholic church that don't.

[dontlaugh]

Lauriefairycake, you very possibly are lucky enough to belong to a liberal church (CofE, Evangelical and so on). Any woman I know who was born into Catholicism was taught from the beginning that women are less than men, there are no female leaders in Catholicism, there are no female ministers/priests/bishops. There is only inequality, secrets and lies. I envy you your faith in a way, however I recognize the freedom you have in your religion and the beauty of being recognized as an equal, regardless of gender. The lack of that, I think, is what non Catholics should recognize in these discussions, as the OP is a catholic which is why I'm focusing on that. I feel reading these replies that there's an element of "your church loves you, of course you are equal to men". Nothing could be further from the reality in Catholicism.

[Marcheline]

This is something I really struggle with. Was raised a feminist and have come to Christianity in the last few years.

The passage about submitting to your husband is something we came across in bible study as I said that I absolutely, cannot consider myself to be 'sub' anything (submissive, subservient etc) to my husband. I am not below him. I was told by another woman that I absolutely am below him; that it was something she struggled with in early marriage but that she submits to him now. He makes all the decisions in their home - he has a say, but ultimately it's all down to him. And this is how a good, Christian wife should be.

I don't believe that at all, and many women I have spoken to since don't either. I truly believe in Christ and God. I also believe that He is a loving, just God who would not discriminate between His people - female/male/gay/straight etc - and that the Church needs to change. The bible was written hundreds and hundreds of years ago, so there are parts of it, particularly in John's letters, that I think are not relevant to being a modern day Christian. The gospel is important. The story of Christ is important. But rules of living from 400AD are not rules for living in 2013.

Sorry if that was too long. As I said, I'm struggling at the moment and it's something I'm trying to work out.

[LaurieFairyCake]

Then stay Summer

I'm in the bloody liberal democrats and its the same thing - I don't agree with national government policies but the community I work in and the work we do is important locally.

Church is more than just a national or international institution - you can affect change from within, there are many campaigns in the Catholic Church for change.

You can love your church, your friends, your priest without loving the wider institution with the numpties in it

[northernlurker]

OP I've sat through that sort of sermon in an evangelical church. It's bobbins. The point of that passage for me is that there is a picture for both men and women of mutual service and sacrifice. I don't obey my husband. I do what we mutually agree is right. If we disagree I do what I think is right. I do that, still committed to our marriage. We have both given things up for the other in love.
Of course you can be a Christian and a feminist. Many of us are

[SummerHoliDidi]

I just don't know if I'm being hypocritical, staying in a wider Church where I don't buy into the whole package.

There are a number of things within the Catholic church that I don't agree with, but that doesn't stop me really liking the community at the church we attend.

[daftdame]

This has being going on sine Chaucer's day. The Wife of Bath' Tale is interesting to say the least...

I think if you then add Grace and Law as concepts into the mix it begins to get more interesting...

The thing is, when you haven't perfect people to begin with a lot of leeway has to be given every which way. As a wife I would seriously consider my husband's views on matters, it would have to be something I felt very strongly about to go directly against what he thought. In practise I am very persuasive though! I don't think there has been many crunch moments...in fact I usually win...

[LaurieFairyCake]

Macheline - I don't agree with your friend when she takes the clause about submission in isolation.

The reality of that verse in my relationship is that we submit to God, at no point have I ever had to submit to some humans will. It's just not required.

There are many reasons the verse is written the way it is but I'm just sticking to the 2 clauses being joined.

And it's totally fine to have problems with verses, I myself get all aerated about Lots wife and the one where someone was supposed to allow his daughters to be raped over his male visitors.

[daftdame]

^ that should be since Chaucer's...

[SummerHoliDidi]

I'm not even married, I'm "living in sin" (there are more reasons than just feminism that I am a bad Catholic) with my dp.

I find it very, very difficult to see myself and my life choices through the eyes of this friend since she found God and has become so devout.

[LaurieFairyCake]

You're not 'living in sin' if you're living in love.

If we were in biblical times and you were living together you were 'married' - modern marriage is just a social construct for the protection of property.

If you're in love, live together and believe God is in your relationship then you are 'married'

[BendyBusBuggy]

Agree with Marcheline that the Bible was written in the context of its time. Most European Christians don't take the first book of Moses to be literally the truth.

[RufousBartleby]

I find this really interesting.

I've been struggling myself OP since having a termination at the start of the year.

I've always been pro-choice as a feminist, which I guess was at odds with the CofE view that it is a 'moral evil' - but actually being in the situation myself has thrown it in to sharp relief.

I don't feel that I made a mistake or committed a sin, which I guess would make my action acceptable from a Christian point of view. I haven't lost my faith, but no longer attend as feel like I shouldn't be there.

Interested to hear what other people who consider themselves feminist Christians would think about this, as I haven't spoken to anyone about it in real life.

[FairPhyllis]

I'm a feminist and a Christian, and, yes, it's a matter of interpretation and understanding passages in the context of the whole of Scripture, deciding in a reasoned way what to give more weight to and asking the Holy Spirit to help us discern what the overarching message of Scripture is, not picking and choosing.

This sort of thing is why I wish that there was better adult education in the Church on Biblical textual stuff. Otherwise you just give people power to wander around quoting verses willy nilly to justify anything.

The Church has its institutional problems because it is made up of human beings, and they bring all their own prejudices and flaws with them. But that doesn't mean we can't work to change the Church as we work to change the rest of the world as feminists. And of course Church =/= Christ.

[BendyBusBuggy]

Not helpful but was just reminded of the Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes vow ... Can't remember exactly, but I think it included him being told she needs a pan and a comb and her being told she should keep him content.

Different strokes for different folks...

[BendyBusBuggy]

RufousBartleby I'm sorry for my silly post after your serious one, I am a slow typer.

I think it depends on how you feel - if you feel happy in your church community you should still go. I think churches are there to help ( those who want this help ) to make us better people. It doesn't work for everyone imo but i think that's what they should be for. We can go there to pray, think, be with other people and help each other.

Do you think you shouldn't because others might think you have sinned but you are not repenting?

[LaurieFairyCake]

Rufous - I'm also pro-choice as a Christian and a feminist.

Please don't feel you have to answer this but consider the reasons for why you did it.

I had a termination and I don't regret it in any way. I do think I did something technically 'wrong' or sinful but since I'm sinful every day and grace exists to pay for me I'm ok with what I felt (at the time) I had to do.

[LRDYaDumayuIThink]

I'm a feminist, a Christian, and I study extremely misogynistic Christian theology and religious practice as part of my degree. It makes me pretty sure that most people who claim Christianity is intrinstically misogynistic are just seeking a lazy justification for misogyny.

There is no excuse for misogyny.

It really does not matter how many misogynistic twits want to say 'ooh, but it's in the Bible/it's what we've always done/it's probably innate/you're just being silly'. Just ignore them.

[SummerHoliDidi]

Rufous I suspect you feel the same way about your termination as I do about my dds and my relationship with my dp. Technically I know that having pre-marital sex is a sin, therefore me having children without having ever been married is also a sin, but I have absolutely no regrets about any of it. I do not see it as a mistake or a sin, so how can I ask for forgiveness for it? I'm supposed to confess my sins in order to receive forgiveness, but if I'm not sorry and I don't see it as a sin, so how can I be forgiven?

I would still go to Church. I do still go to Church, even though I'm not sure I should be there. I'm getting more and more concerned that that makes me a hypocrite though.

[RufousBartleby]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

I think you are right that I feel conflicted about it.

Laurie - the reasons for the termination were that the baby had downs syndrome and developmental problems. I didn't mention this in my earlier post, because I didn't want to detract from the fact that I am pro-choice anyway.

I wonder too Summer if I would be a hypocrite - for going along and pretending it didn't happen, and also would I in some way be endorsing the official C of E view that it is a 'moral evil'? May be I need to look at a different church? Are the Methodists/URC more flexible on this?

[EmmelineGoulden]

Rufous Christians were instrumental in the fight for safe abortions in the USA in the mid-20th century. The Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion arranged safe (though then illegal) abortions for women in the 60s and 70s. Although the Evangelical Right are the loudest "Christian" voice on the matter, it is not the only view. Even the Catholic church came to its current total opposition relatively recently. There are many Chritians who do not believe that abortion is a sin.

[LaurieFairyCake]

Roufous - I do not believe that your termination was sinful at all (mine was IMO).

I'm very sorry for your loss.

[EmmelineGoulden]

On the matter of Christian feminists, certainly many of the the stories, rituals and set ups of most churches reflect the sexism that we see in wider society; and historically the church has been part of what shaped and strengthened the patriarchy we now contend with. That structural sexism is evident even in some of the most liberal churches - women take a lesser role in leadership than their numbers and years would suggest they should (or perhaps it would be more correct to say men take a larger role, since most congregations are predominantly female).

But that is true of many institutions, and feminists still, for instance, get involved in academia or politics, despite the structural issues. You don't hear many women asking "can I study maths and be a feminist?". I don't see why religion is different. You don't have to reject education or politics because the institutions are patriarchal (though some women do), equally I don't think you have to reject Christianity because the church is sexist. You should speak up about sexism though work to ensure equality. For some women that will mean not engaging with current churches.

Whether Chritianity as a faith is compatible with feminism is a different matter. There is a lot of talk above about the marriage vows and how submission to a husband is not necessary, but submission to God is. Personally, I think this is at odds with feminism. It doesn't matter what it is you submit your will to - a philosophy that has you submitting is not a liberation philosophy. And the fact that men should submit too only makes us equally cowed, it is not the same as women being liberated. But this is as much about what it is to be human as what it is to be a feminist.