Does anyone want to chat about Dorothy L Sayers' books with me?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

From a feministy perspective, I mean. I've just recently got into them so haven't read that many, but things keep striking me. Not just Sayers herself having a feminist perspective (though she obviously does), but also details about the time period I wouldn't have known about.

The thing that made me smile most recently was in Gaudy Night, she has a conversation between Harriet Vane and one of the dons at her fictional Oxford college, who observe that the women undergraduates have a bad habit of sunbathing in their underwear and really, this is unfair ('not on the [male] undergraduates - they're used to it') on the male dons who might wander through the quad and see them.

It just struck me that it's such a different image from the rather buttoned-up idea of attitudes towards women's bodies I'd expect from that time.

What does anyone else think?

And what do you think of Jill Paton Walsh finishing of Sayers' last unfinished draft and writing continuations? Is it a travesty, or is this the kind of collaboration that feminism ought to be supporting? There being that argument that the 'lone genius author' is a concept that's always associated more with men than with women.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Yup!

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

Thanks for mentioning Alan Grant; I just added The Daughter of Time to my re-read list.

I will have to retire to find time to read all these books.

[seeker]

Don't forget The Singing Sands. Wonderful book!

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

The Singing Sands, definitely added to the list.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Stop it you people! I shall have to neglect the children to read all these books and it will be your fault.

[Abra1d]

'Roderick Alleyne, Adam Dalgliesh, Alan Grant, Peter Wimsey - all cut from same cloth!'

I should remind my son, who sometimes laments the fact he's not a hulking jock, that these are the kind of men real women fall for: intelligent, thoughtful, etc.

I often think of Mr Bennet suffering for the rest of his life from having chosen a beautiful but silly wife. I have other male friends who have done something similar and it gets very lonely when you reach the later part of your life and there is no hope of being soulmates with your spouse.

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

Bump

[MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik]

Ooh, I'm so glad you bumped this!

I have just finished reading Nine Tailors (like, this morning). It is so spooky! I wasn't expecting that, but it was properly atmospheric.

From a feministy point of view I found Peter's supporting the teenager who wanted to go to Oxford and write books rather sweet, but also a little odd ... in the context of the Harriet Vane books (which I expect she'd not thought of writing at this point?) it does slightly make Peter look like a dirty old man with an odd thing for bookish Oxford grads.

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

The Nine Tailors was the last book before Gaudy Night.

I think Sayers was perhaps seeing Hilary as a young Harriet (or else a young Sayers ).

The would-be heiress in Bellona Club has some of Harriet's characteristics too.

[MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik]

Yes, I'm sure she's a young Sayers.

I need to read the Bellona Club one.

[notcitrus]

Loving this thread - I'm in the middle of reading Sayers, after never getting into them when I was younger, probably because I started with Documents in the Case while revising A-level Chemistry, so the solution was obvious from near the start.

She evokes place particularly well, and some places like rural Norfolk, Piccadilly and the Oxford colleges are incredibly recognisable even now. And it's great t0po have a detective figure with a family. I've just read two volumes of short stories, some of which weren't so great but others were excellent character studies. And I liked the Monty Egg stories, a nice contrast with Wimsey's raining money everywhere.

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

The Nine Tailors is a Bechdel test fail, I think (Mrs Venables and Emily talk, but it's about Bunter)

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

I read all my mum's books, the old bindings used to basically give away the plot in the front cover picture!

[notnowImreading]

That drives me bananas. The 1970s editions of Agatha Christie do that as well.

[MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik]

The bells are all she, but sadly, I don't think they're talking to each other except about the dead man.

[TeiTetua]

Out over the flat, white wastes of fen, over the spear-straight, steel-dark dykes and the wind-bent, groaning poplar trees, bursting from the snow-choked louvres of the belfry, whirled away southward and westward in gusty blasts of clamour to the sleeping counties went the music of the bells--little Gaude, silver Sabaoth, strong John and Jericho, glad Jubilee, sweet Dimity and old Batty Thomas, with great Tailor Paul bawling and striding like a giant in the midst of them.

They sound rather male, mostly. But would they be "she" in Norfolk dialect?

[MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik]

tei - someone in the book claims that all bells, no matter what their names, are 'she'. Apparently. Like ships.

It is nice writing, isn't it?

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

It is a really well written book, all the characters are fleshed out too.

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

Bump!

[TheDoctrineOfAllan]

I'm a bit pissed off with JPW having LPW refer to Rosamund as a "cold hearted sexual tease" in TD. I don't think that came from DLS and in the context, it's hard to stomach from a modern author.

[Isabelonatricycle]

I quite liked the first JPW, but was a bit very irritated by her turning HV into a snob at the end of Attenbury Emeralds after the slight spoiler fire. I don't have my copy with me, but she said something like Bredon now having to go to a good school due to changed circumstances, and Harriet would never have said that!

Love DLS - my grandmother gave me my first (Gaudy Night) when I went up to university as she had been at LMH before the war and she told me that (getting rid of the detectivy bits!) it was a good picture of how Oxford had been in her day. Very much love LPW, but not a fan of her Montague Egg stories.

Along the lines of good detective books to read, has anyone been reading Ellis Peters?

[LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy]

That's very crap, doctrine, yes. That strikes me as JPW trying too hard to get into an old-fashioned mindset and not crediting Sayers with not being a twit.

I am still enjoying reading through them all, though, I'm on Clouds of Witness at the moment.

It is odd, isn't it, that JPW seems to write Harriet as rather less feministy than Sayers did?

I am massively jealous of your granny, isabel.

[Isabelonatricycle]

Oh me too!

I think JPW hadn't had the same experiences as DLS (sorry for stating the obvious) re being among the first to get a degree despite many women studying at Oxford before her, the war, her child etc. And also maybe (tenuous hypothesis here) JPW is making Harriet more "establishment" given all her novels are post their marriage? I don't think Harriet would have ever morphed into Helen (shudder!) but that may be what JPW is trying to do? Or just JPW is less of a feminist than DLS and it shows in her writing as it is very difficult to completely mimic another's style/way of thinking.

[LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy]

Yes, I think that's definitely true - I think it's such a pity, though, I would have loved to read how Sayers would have written their marriage.

Incidentally, I so didn't realize how slashy Sayers is - the bit I'm reading is about Impey Biggs being 'the most attractive man in England whom no woman will never want', and loving canary birds or musical revue, while Whimsey's voice goes husky. Oooeeer!

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I've read a few Ellis Peters Brother Cadfael books in my time. I like Brother Cadfael. Is he a feminist? Can't remember but I remember thinking he's a really nice person.