My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone want to chat about Dorothy L Sayers' books with me?

172 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/06/2013 16:45

From a feministy perspective, I mean. I've just recently got into them so haven't read that many, but things keep striking me. Not just Sayers herself having a feminist perspective (though she obviously does), but also details about the time period I wouldn't have known about.

The thing that made me smile most recently was in Gaudy Night, she has a conversation between Harriet Vane and one of the dons at her fictional Oxford college, who observe that the women undergraduates have a bad habit of sunbathing in their underwear and really, this is unfair ('not on the [male] undergraduates - they're used to it') on the male dons who might wander through the quad and see them.

It just struck me that it's such a different image from the rather buttoned-up idea of attitudes towards women's bodies I'd expect from that time.

What does anyone else think?

And what do you think of Jill Paton Walsh finishing of Sayers' last unfinished draft and writing continuations? Is it a travesty, or is this the kind of collaboration that feminism ought to be supporting? There being that argument that the 'lone genius author' is a concept that's always associated more with men than with women.

OP posts:
Report
TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 03/06/2013 14:03

Why Sad? I just meant that the amount of esoteric knowledge held by those two at the tips of their tongues was, ahem, a smidge on the smug side...

Report
LRDtheFeministDragon · 03/06/2013 14:06

Oh, I was joking. The sadface was meant to be a stealth boast implying I am reasonably familiar with people who aren't Shakespeare or Donne (which is what I think they mean).

But yes, they are smug. I find it irritating that in the modern editions printed quite recently, they don't translate the long bits of French, and my French is not really up to it.

OP posts:
Report
TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 03/06/2013 14:08

Oh good Smile

Report
LRDtheFeministDragon · 03/06/2013 14:10

Sorry! Blush

OP posts:
Report
SconeRhymesWithGone · 03/06/2013 14:48

This is a great thread. I will now add Michael Innes and Lindsey Davis to my list.

Last week I finished a massive project at work, and having promised myself a solitary mini-vacation as reward, I am now sitting on a screened porch on an island off the coast of Georgia, first cup of coffee in hand, happily lost in Gaudy Night.

Thanks to all. Flowers

Report
UptoapointLordCopper · 03/06/2013 15:00
Envy
Report
stealthsquiggle · 03/06/2013 15:08

Envy Envy Envy

Report
stealthsquiggle · 03/06/2013 15:10

LordCopper - I love your name. It's a common saying in our family, but whenever I have tried it on anyone else, including DH, I get Hmm.

Report
UptoapointLordCopper · 03/06/2013 15:48

Stealth Smile DH and I both Evelyn Waugh fans. Come to think of it, have never tried thinking about his books from the feminist perspective. Probably doesn't bear thinking about ...

Report
stealthsquiggle · 03/06/2013 16:03

I wouldn't, if I were you. I don't think they would stand up to scrutiny and it might spoil them.

Report
NorthernLurker · 03/06/2013 19:01

RE DLS and French - those who've read Clouds of Witness (which is another jolly good book and possibly a good one to start with if you're new to Sayers) will know that the solution come in the form of a letter in French. Can you believe when DLS first wrote it she didn't add a translation! Her publishers had to insist.......

Report
LRDtheFeministDragon · 03/06/2013 19:06

Ooh, scone. Niiiiice. Envy That sounds perfect.

northern - at least they insisted! I was struggling with one of Peter's uncle's letters. I would be so fucked off to get to the end of a book and realize the solution was in something I'd had to skip.

OP posts:
Report
UptoapointLordCopper · 03/06/2013 19:08

I thought it was only me! I thought all British people will read enough French (!!), and I'm not from round here and they didn't think to teach us French where I come from. Grin

Report
UptoapointLordCopper · 03/06/2013 19:10

(Of course I know that not everyone who read English is British and not all British people read French. It's just one of those irrational thing. Like thinking Watership Down was written by rabbits. Blush)

Report
LRDtheFeministDragon · 03/06/2013 19:13

Ahem.

Shit.

I let the side down.

Of course we all read French!

I can read a bit of French and I can struggle through something if I know broadly what it's about, but TBH I skip over the French in a book like that, because life is short and I can't be arsed to sit over google keying in every fourth word.

OP posts:
Report
SarahMumsnet · 03/06/2013 19:32

This is my dream thread Grin

Absolutely agree with all the Gaudy Night love. I think the negotiation Harriet and Peter go through to find a mutually respectful way to have a relationship is one of the most fascinating, admirable pieces of writing on love I've read. Compare it with the way courtship is written in most novels, then and now, and it feels revolutionary, I think. Off to order Whose Body? which I haven't actually read. I thank you all Grin

Report
Lilymaid · 03/06/2013 19:41

If you like Michael Innes, try reading the series of books he wrote as J.I.M. Stewart (his real name) - A Staircase in Surrey.

Report
UptoapointLordCopper · 03/06/2013 19:50

I've not read the JIM Stewart books. Next on the list!

Report
edam · 03/06/2013 19:52

Am I the only person who enjoys Jill Paton Walsh's continuation of the Wimsey stories? I've been addicted to Dorothy L Sayers since my early teens (along with Christie and Wentworth and, to a lesser extent, Ngiao (sp?) Marsh) so it was lovely to see the characters continue. Think JPL did DLS justice in the unfinished book she finished - far more so than many other attempts to finish unfinished novels. PD James' Pemberley was horrific - that woman has NO wit at all, heaven only knows how she thought she was capable of imitating Austen, let alone writing a sequel.

Report
UptoapointLordCopper · 03/06/2013 19:56

edam - Agree about Pemberley.

Hello to SarahMumsnet.

How about Margery Allingham then? Strange goings on between women in The Fashion in Shrouds. And the courtship (?) between Albert Campion and Amanda? I do like Amanda. A woman aeroplane designer, in those days!

Report
seeker · 03/06/2013 20:22

Sarah- I am so jealous of you still having a PW book to read!

As I feel in the company of like minds- can I mention The Crystal Cave?

Report
LRDtheFeministDragon · 03/06/2013 20:30

Oh, I am honoured, sarahMN. Grin

I agree about the writing, too. I love how there's a bit where Peter is trying to comfort her, and at some point his voice is muffled in her hair. That's the only bit of 'physical' there. Nicely done.

I enjoyed the one I read, edam, I've just not read enough to judge.

I agree it's not in the same class as Pemberley, even a bit.

OP posts:
Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

FairPhyllis · 03/06/2013 21:30

I've added Michael Innes and Laurie King to my Amazon wishlist.

More thoughts: what do we think about the horror mashups of classic novels? Interesting that the immediate subjects of these were the big classic women writers - Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters, Jane Slayer. I haven't actually read any of them though. Why not Vanity Fair and Vampires?

Report
SarahMumsnet · 03/06/2013 22:08

I liked the first JPW continuation which, if I remember rightly, is based quite heavily on DLS fragments ...

and seeker - ALWAYS mention The Crystal Cave! I haven't read that for years. Off to order that too ...

Report
MooncupGoddess · 03/06/2013 22:15

The best Margery Allingham novels (Sweet Danger, Tiger in the Smoke, More Work for the Undertaker, Traitor's Purse etc) are odd but brilliant. I like Amanda too though I have a nasty feeling Allingham makes some rather less feminist comments about women's roles elsewhere.

Haven't read The Crystal Cave for many, many years but I love Mary Stewart's romantic thrillers. Although the plucky heroine usually ends up getting rescued by the dashing hero...

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.