I suppose this proves that women just can't stand the heat.........

[seeker]

here

[Schooldidi]

That's what I was thinking, maybe schools are more equally balanced than other professions. I don't know because i haven't ever worked in any other profession.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

On schools - but most headteachers are male. Delusions also said that people are uncomfortable with men in "feminine" roles and would roll out the red carpet and "progress" them as quickly as possible so that they are in their "proper" role as the people "in charge".

But really must go and feed the children. Back later.

[AmandaPayne]

Oh yes, I do remember that bit now Copper. I read it about 18 months ago.

[Schooldidi]

Are most headteachers male? I haven't found that in my experiences, maybe it's a regional thing, or maybe I've just not had a typical experience with the schools I've dealt with. When I was at school I went to 3 schools, all the heads were women. Dd1 has been to 4 schools, she has had 3 female heads and 2 male ones. I've worked in 4 schools, 3 male heads, 2 female ones, but more women overall in the SMT.

[AmandaPayne]

I think Copper's statistic is only applicable to secondary schools, if I recall correctly. Does that help at all?

[UptoapointLordCopper]

2008 report: The NCSL's Women in Headship study found that 87% of primary school teachers are women but only 67% of heads are women and in secondary schools 57% of teachers are women, but only 36% of heads.



Not as much imbalance as in universities and politics, I guess?

[Trytrytyagain]

Most Headteachers are female.

44% of secondary school are women.
70% of primary school are women.

m.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/sep/25/headteachers-secondary-school-women

[Trytrytyagain]

Sorry crossed posts.

[solveproblem]

Did any of you watch Borgen? A Danish series about a female struggling with a mother/woman in a demanding role.
If you haven't, please do!

[blueshoes]

Teaching must be quite unique in that it is overwhelmingly female to get those numbers. However, I'll bet that the % of men in top posts probably comprise a larger percentage of the total number of men in the teaching profession compared with women.

At the end of 2010, the percentage of women on FTSE 100 boards stood at 12.5%. Women held 5.5% of executive directorships and 15.6% of non-executive directorships.

In magic circle law firms, the percentage of women partners is around 15%. The number of women in senior management posts probably even fewer.

[Binfullofmaggotsonth45]

Surely the point of the article is about declining numbers of women in Political and Public positions, not a general mothers in the workplace issue?

For me personally, as a Senior Manager in a Multinational firm, I personally would have no interest in switching to a political career, even though I have a strong direction to my politics. I think what is off putting is the perception of spin, deception, cover ups and back stabbing that I would perceive happens at a senior level. I prefer an honest days work for an honest days pay IYSWIM.

I've spent a long time encouraging an open and honest workforce and I've tried to set a great example of a flexible manager both to the males in my workforce who need the occasional "work at home" day as well as the females.

I wonder what the Serbians are doing to make it so accessible? Perhaps the female pillars have sacrificed family life for political? Perhaps at this fairly early stage of political development more women need to take a stand? I really don't know....

I'd love to know more about the background of the women in public life from other countries noted in the article, but it's a little succinct in that direction.

[AmandaPayne]

Yes, we have got a bit off track Binfull.

I think the organisation of our political parties probably doesn't help. I'd guess (without wishing to gender stereotype) that the moronic grandstanding and dick waving of PMQs is pretty off putting to a lot of women. Likewise the fact that our parliament is not just mostly men, it is mostly public school boys - that's pretty off putting for anyone who isn't that group.

I also wonder whether women do better in countries with more coalition politics. Not because 'ooh, women collaborate', but more because there is more negotiation and not just pointless name calling and showboating before a foregone conclusion vote.

[Binfullofmaggotsonth45]

I think you've nailed it successfully there Amanda!

I always try and take an individual view, rather than a gender view whenever I can. However I can't help but feel that this is gender led behavior in our Government, and as you mention the Old Boys network, that other countries don't have to overcome.

I'm not sure how it is in the Police force but when I was younger our local constabularies were pretty much run from the local Masonic lodge.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I think many things are a gender issue. Men and women are viewed so differently for the same things they do. For example, there are studies that shows that men and women showing emotions are viewed differently. A professional man showing anger raises his status, but a professional woman who shows anger lowers her status: she is "an angry person" and not to be trusted. (This was in the last issue of New Scientist, and in Delusions of Gender too.) Because of this type of things we need to consider gender issues in more situations than we would like to.

[Binfullofmaggotsonth45]

I know Upto but in my optimistic world I always hope others are treating me as equally as I am them!

I know, I know.....

And actually for the first time, I am in a management structure surrounded by strong powerful working mums who do get emotional, angry and expressive - but always seem to be upfront, honest non game players. It's so refreshing!

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I always assume others are treating me as an equal too. But periodically somebody or some event will disillusion you and put you in your place. And it makes me angry.

[Schooldidi]

I always assume people are treating me equally too. It's very rare that someone disillusions me but when they do it makes me angry. It also makes me realise that other women are probably treated like that all the time and it's only luck that surrounds me with the nice people I know and love.

[exoticfruits]

I can't think why anyone wants a position of power- I prefer a life. A lot of men are coming around to the fact that there is more to life than work. You work to live and not live to work. A position of power means that you miss the things that really matter - you are too busy.
I am glad that someone wants to do it but no way am I going to miss the early years of my DCs lives to get there- it is something money can't buy.
Even when I started teaching I knew that I would have no desire to be a Head. I went I to it because I wanted to be in the classroom- I didn't want to progress- it is a different job. I imagine that lots of women feel the same.
I would far rather go and live by the coast, do B&B , keep hens and grow vegetables than be a Head of Industry.

[exoticfruits]

It comes at a huge cost - not one that I am willing to take. I would feel suicidal if I had to be on some hamster wheel if a career ladder with no time to read, go on long walks, see my DCs school play, be a Beaver leader, have my elderly mother to stay, cook proper meals, make chutney , have time to stand and stare etc etc etc. why on earth would I be working if I missed it all and had to get others to do it? I would much rather have enough money to pay the bills and have time.
I can't see why we have an obsession with jobs, power and status. I don't want status or power - they hold no appeal.

[exoticfruits]

I can't even see why we are supposed to want it. Only a few want that sort of life- they need to organise it with their DP as to which goes for it. You can only have 2 parents in high power jobs if you pay for child care, housekeeping etc. and don't see much of your children. I would be jealous of the nanny who had the best job!

[kickassangel]

I'm only a statistic of one, but the glass ceiling dropped on my head with a great thud as soon as I had a child. Previously I got every post I wanted, then I interviewed but didn't get several jobs after having dd. all the jobs I went for went to men or one woman who hated children and refused to have any (we were teachers btw).

This was even though I worked til 35 weeks pregnant, and would have continued if it wasn't the summer, and went on a training day unpaid when dd was 7 weeks, and and returned within 4 months.

But then there were enough women at our school who were deeply unhappy and we were putting together a folder of evidence for a sex discrimation case.

This is in teaching, an apparently family friendly and easy for women to work environment.

I can only imagine how much worse it must be in other places

[sashh]

Not all women want or can have children.

I'd like to see a breakdown of the women who do make it to the top and see how many are mothers.

I think the ML rules are crap. It should be parental leave and fathers should be forced to take at least part of it.

The childcare cost is a red herring. Nursing is still predominantly a female job, but the nurses at managerial level are mainly male.

[skrumle]

in relation to politics i think there are several issues:

selection is normally done by local parties - as a society we still appear to think that men are more capable (i think if we had a female prime minister and chancellor there would be unprecedented hand-wringing over whether men were being sidelined, which doesn't happen when both posts are filled by men). i believe most people still think there should be better representation of women, but not at the risk of under-representation of men. i had a woman in our local party tell me she had voted for the other candidate in a by-election selection because he was a man despite the fact she knew me better...

i think it's accepted as a norm that women are not as good at selling themselves as men. IMO women would be seen as pushy and arrogant for behaviour in men that would be seen as authoritative and confident. in party politics that means competent men often end up ahead of exceptional women.

there are still very few examples to aspire to, and if you get elected you are fighting against the norm which is kind of tiring...

childcare and time off for having children is actually less relevant IMO when it comes to politics because you don't necessarily need to build your career in the same way you normally would in industry, and it's not a 9-5 job so it's easier to juggle childcare (especially if you have a supportive partner who does work 9-5). the issue is perhaps that other people assume it will be a problem - when i was campaigning several people asked me how i was going to manage for childcare, i'm pretty sure they didn't ask my male opponent with school age children what he was going to do (even though i know both of us had primary care-giver responsibility).