So in the wake of a massive public spotlight on rape, the priority apparently is to protect the reputations of the tiny % of men falsely accused of rape

[FastidiaBlueberry]

FFS FFS FFS

Is it very cynical of me to think that this new demand to enable anonymity for men accused of rape (most of whom are guilty, but get off anyway) is a psychological need to re-establish what is most important to these woman-haters?

Stop talking about the mountain of rape victims who never get justice and FGS start talking about the anthill of men who get falsely accused.

Enough of Steubenville, Delhi, Frances Andrade, Jimmy Savile's victims, the 1 in 4 women who are raped or sexually assaulted.

Let's get back to talking about the really important issues - the miniscule number of men who will be falsely accused of rape or who will be the victim of mistaken identity. Fools, don't you know they're more important than all those rape vicitms? That that's a much bigger issue? So what 25% of women are subjected to rape or sexual assault? So what if 85-90% of rape victims don't report? So what that of those who do, only 6% get a guilty verdict even though only between 2-6% are lying or mistaken? Let's get some perspective on this - men matter more than women, stop imagining they don't.

Fuming but off to bed.

[maisere]

Your talking different crimes which are both horrendous but different.
How many murderers are known as a nonce and subject to vigilante revenge
in their own homes when found not guilty? Not many..... where I live murder would be a badge of honour ! I firmly believe that any criminal should serve a whole sentence and hopefully be left to continue the life they have left. Should they re-offend then its the system that is wrong and not fit for purpose. I don't see reports of murder which are false and malicious either.

[TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub]

Maisere, I am thinking of Joanna Yeates's landlord who was under suspicion for her murder for a while.

The answer might be more overall curbs on media behaviour.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Until you have had a loved one wrongly accused, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about.

It is devastating and can completely ruin lives.
Maybe too many men aren't prosecuted, there are huge flaws in the system.
However, this is not the fault of the innocent.
Thankfully we have a justice system of innocent until proved guilty and I would like to keep it that way, especially for those who are innocent.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

"Most rape allegations are genuine, keeping names out of the headlines until convicted means that will be far less public attention to the small number of false allegations as those men won't be publicly victimised and branded."

Wrong. Before 1975, there was anonymity for defendants accused of rape. There was no less "public attention to the small number of false allegations" then than there is now - the first subject of discussion was in fact, how many false allegations there were, just as it is now. Not only that, every time the jury retired to consider its verdict, judges would remind them that however convincing the evidence seemed, it was well known that women frequently lied about rape.

I'm not making that up, this is what happened. Judges warned juries that women frequently lied about rape.

Why do you think they did that? Because there was research which showed how mad women were, how unbalanced, morally deficient and malicious they were? No, there was no research, there was simply kneejerk misogyny, which is where the idea of the prevalence of false allegations comes from.

Here's a thing: Most accused rapists walk free from a police interview. Most don't even get taken to court, let alone convicted. The vast majority of men accused of rape, are guilty. When a man walks free having been accused of rape, because of the statistics, there will always be a bit of a doubt as to whether he's innocent, because we all know that he's most likely to be guilty but have got away with it.

I would have thought that those of you so concerned with innocent men wrongly accused, would have had more interest in seeing how we can raise the conviction rate of those who are actually guilty. That would surely be the best immunisation against the lingering cloud of suspicion following a false or mistaken allegation. Anonymity for accused rapists wouldn't do that, it would ensure that even more rapists walk free.

John Worboys is in prison because he didn't have anonymity. If he had had, he'd still be driving round London raping women. But who cares, what does that matter, compared with the tiny risk of a man being falsely accused eh?

"I really wish you could spend an hour with my husband ..he is a broken man...broken by a women who accused him of historic abuse and rape"

I really wish you could spend an hour in the company of the thousands of women who have been raped and have had their lives utterly broken by it for years and years, sometimes forever. There are many, many more of them, than men who have been falsely accused. But they just don't matter as much, do they? It's OK to have them as collateral damage because their lives just don't matter as much as those of men.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

"Until you have had a loved one wrongly accused, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about."

I could say "Until you have been raped or had a loved one be raped and engage in the self-destructive behaviour and fall-out which can last decades and is caused not so much by the rape itself, but by societal attitudes surrounding rape, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about."

But really, what would be the point?

[morethanpotatoprints]

Once again.
The thousands of women who have been raped and had their lives utterly broken does not imo mean that an annocent man should have his life utterly broken.
FFS its not tit for tat get any bloody man at any cost. Or is that what the supporters want.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Fast.

Yes I have both.

How the hell does it help a rape victim by punishing an innocent man?

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Accusing an innocent man of rape is not punishing him, anymore than accusing an innocent man of murder, robbery, burglary or any other crime.

People generally believe men are innocent of rape.

Even when they are found guilty of rape, FGS.

Ched Evans anyone?

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Most people believe rapists are innocent, unless they are one of the minority of rapists who don't know the victim beforehand and use other violence or threats to facilitate the rape.

Of those who are believed to be guilty and subjected to male violence as a result of suspicion, the main reason those men subject him to that violence, is because they know full well that if he is guilty, he'll probably walk free anyway.

How would anonymity solve those problems?

[SigmundFraude]

'I really wish you could spend an hour in the company of the thousands of women who have been raped and have had their lives utterly broken by it for years and years, sometimes forever. There are many, many more of them, than men who have been falsely accused. But they just don't matter as much, do they? It's OK to have them as collateral damage because their lives just don't matter as much as those of men.'

Isn't it better to say that both situations are dreadful?

[morethanpotatoprints]

Fast.

People don't generally believe men are innocent of rape ime.
Of course it is punishing him, have you never seen what it does to a person, to families ( and I don't mean because they don't believe him ). Do you know what it does to his children, how his work is affected. He may be temporarily suspended from his work, especially if with children. His work colleagues may be questioned, his wife will have to answer all manner of personal questions.
They may be targeted by vigilantes, they may have to move.
So having been on the receiving end of rape and a dh accused of rape. DFO you know nothing.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

"Isn't it better to say that both situations are dreadful?"

Why is it better to say that?

It's not wrong to say that.

But it's not better.

It presents some sort of false equivalence doesn't it - ignoring the fact that one is far more common than the other.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Fast.

My dh didn't know the person and it was a call to crime stoppers. Unfortunately, witness statements described my dh to a tea, car, looks everything. He was even in the place at the time. Although the person couldn't have known this because it was a one off visit.
It nearly killed my dh and I don't exagerate, he was named, shamed, police night and day. We had 2 small dc and I was frightened to death of what might happen. Dh lost 3 stone in no time at all.
They caught the man in the end, I heard on the news. No apology, no police call to tell us. Nothing.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

"People don't generally believe men are innocent of rape ime." Sorry, but "IYO" isn't representative. Most people believe men who rape, unless it's strangers in dark alleys, are innocent. If your experience is different, then that's your experience, but it's not borne out by surveys which show that most people believe women are lying about rape.

"Of course it is punishing him, have you never seen what it does to a person, to families ( and I don't mean because they don't believe him ). Do you know what it does to his children, how his work is affected. He may be temporarily suspended from his work, especially if with children. His work colleagues may be questioned, his wife will have to answer all manner of personal questions.
They may be targeted by vigilantes, they may have to move."

All those things may also happen to men accused of other crimes. Rape is not a special case. The only reason people think it is a special case, is because of the misogynist hangover.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

morethanpotatoprints, that says more about how bloody awful police procedures are and local media reporting is, than being a good argument for anonymity for rape alone.

The police should have informed your husband and the local press.

The fact that they didn't shows how much in its infancy victim, witness and suspect support is.

It's not an argument for anonymity for rape defendants and no other defendants.

[SigmundFraude]

'Why is it better to say that?'

Because it's true. Both situations are horrendous.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Fast.

We will have to beg to differ on this. I don't care what others think in surveys I care what they say to my face and if we want to continue with a justice system that considers innocent until proven guilty, we can't name and shame people who are innocent/accused

[FastidiaBlueberry]

And yes I can see why your experience isn't typical, because your DH was accused of being a stranger rapist - less than 8% of all rape cases. Disastrous, I know, but no more disastrous in general, than being accused of other crimes.

And you have to balance the disaster of your DH's situation, against the disaster of thousands of women who are raped who have very little chance of justice and who would have even less chance of justice if anonymity for rapists were introduced.

No justice system is ever perfect and there will always be people who will be terribly damaged by it.

Those who believe in anonymity for defendants, believe that it is always preferable that women be damaged, than that men be.

[SigmundFraude]

'surveys which show that most people believe women are lying about rape.'

Which surveys? I've never seen a survey that's said that. This is the first time I've heard this. I would imagine that most people are aware that a percentage of women lie about it, as evidenced in the media, but that most women don't.

I have never heard a blanket statement like this before.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

In that case more, are you in favour of ALL defendants of all crimes being anonymous until found guilty?

Because that is consistent and logical and though I don't agree with it, I can see the logic of it.

[Trekkie]

So it's a yes to anonimity for people accused of all crimes, morethanpotatoprints?

Personally I can't support singling rape out and cannot understand why anyone would want to do that. Unless they genuinely believed that women commonly lie about rape. And surely no-one believes that.

Incidentally I know 2 men who have raped people, not involving the police, but it has been common knowledge. And the general reaction has been that nothing has changed for them at all, even with this knowledge in circulation.

I also know of one girl who was raped and everyone, from people my age to people of my parents generation, immediately stated that she had made it up (for no reason whatsoever). When I asked people why they thought that, they looked a bit taken aback and mentioned things like "attention seeking" and being guilty about having sex with someone they'd only just met. Hmm.

I think the we believe you message is very very important. because actually, people don't.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

^'Why is it better to say that?'

Because it's true. Both situations are horrendous.^

But it glosses over the fact that one is an anthill and one is Mount Everest, doesn't it?

And that's why you like it SF

[SigmundFraude]

'And that's why you like it SF'

You've lost me?