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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Just saw this on Facebook

159 replies

shrinkingnora · 26/01/2013 15:18

Apologies if this has previously been discussed but a friend has just posted the following on Facebook and I wondered what others thought of it. I would like nice pithy response but am struggling to put it into words. It has really depressed me.

"THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW IF YOU ARE EVER ATTACKED"

(PLS TAKE TIME TO READ THIS. It may save a life.) Click Share Button to share it on your Wall.

Rapists are predators. Period. Predators never let victims know when they will attack ... or that they literally "hunt" for a victim ... By following these tips, you can make your world a little safer.

It seems that a lot of attackers use some tactic to get away with violence. Not many people know how to take care of themselves when faced with such a situation. Everyone should read this especially each and every girl in this world.

THOUGHT THIS WAS GOOD INFO TO PASS ALONG...

A group of rapists and date rapists in prison were interviewed on what they look for in a potential victim and here are some interesting facts:

1] Understand that your hairstyle could benefit an attacker:
Ponytails and long hair are the number one styles rapists seek because long hair and ponytails are easy to grab. Women with short hair are not common targets. But there are exceptions.

2] The second thing men look for is clothing. They will look for women whose clothing is easy to remove quickly. Many of them carry scissors around to cut clothing.

3] They also look for women using their cell phone, searching through their purse or doing other activities while walking because they are off guard and can be easily overpowered.

4] Be aware of your surroundings at all times:
The places women are abducted from / attacked at /targeted by attempted rapists are grocery store parking lots, office parking lots/garages, public restrooms. These men are predators, so view your surroundings carefully. If you are in a parking lot and feel someone is following you, start making noise - talk to yourself loudly, talk to an imaginary person, or pretend to talk on your cell phone. The louder the potential victim, the more the predator is apt to freeze.

5] Use your loudest voice if you have any doubts.
Remember, its better to be considered crazy, than to keep quiet to avoid weird looks.

6] Work on being assertive:
If somebody is giving you unwanted attention, tell them to back off. There is no need to be polite when somebody is making unwanted sexual advances.

7] The thing about these men is that they are looking to grab a woman and quickly move her to a second location where they don't have to worry about getting caught.

8] If you put up any kind of a fight at all, they get discouraged because it only takes a minute or two for them to realize that going after you isn't worth it because it will be time-consuming.

9] These men said they would not pick on women who have umbrellas, or other similar objects that can be used from a distance, in their hands.

10] Keys are not a deterrent because you have to get really close to the attacker to use them as a weapon. So, the idea is to convince these guys you're not worth it.

POINTS THAT WE SHOULD REMEMBER TO PREVENT A POTENTIAL RAPE


1] If someone is following behind you on a street or in a garage or with you in an elevator or stairwell, look them in the face and ask them a question, like what time is it, or make general small talk: can't believe it is so cold out here, we're in for a bad winter. Now that you've seen their faces and could identify them in a line- up, you lose appeal as a target.

2] If someone is coming toward you, hold out your hands in front of you and yell Stop or Stay back! Most of the rapists this man talked to said they'd leave a woman alone if she yelled or showed that she would not be afraid to fight back. Again, they are looking for an EASY target.

3] If you carry pepper spray (this instructor was a huge advocate of it and carries it with him wherever he goes,) yelling I HAVE PEPPER SPRAY and holding it out will be a deterrent.

4] If someone grabs you, you can't beat them with strength but you can do it by outsmarting them. If you are grabbed around the waist from behind, pinch the attacker either under the arm between the elbow and armpit or in the upper inner thigh - HARD. One woman in a class this guy taught told him she used the underarm pinch on a guy who was trying to date rape her and was so upset she broke through the skin and tore out muscle strands the guy needed stitches. Try pinching yourself in those places as hard as you can stand it; it really hurts.

5] After the initial hit, always go for the groin. I know from a particularly unfortunate experience that if you slap a guy's parts it is extremely painful. You might think that you'll anger the guy and make him want to hurt you more, but the thing these rapists told our instructor is that they want a woman who will not cause him a lot of
trouble. Start causing trouble, and he's out of there.

6] When the guy puts his hands up to you, grab his first two fingers and bend them back as far as possible with as much pressure pushing down on them as possible. The instructor did it to me without using much pressure, and I ended up on my knees and both knuckles cracked
audibly.

7] Of course the things we always hear still apply. Always be aware of your surroundings, take someone with you if you can and if you see any odd behavior, don't dismiss it, and go with your instincts. You may feel little silly at the time, but you'd feel much worse if the guy really was trouble.

8] If a rapist is in your car and is sitting in the passenger seat with a weapon to you, they will tell you to go somewhere where they are less likely to be witnessed. Whatever you do, don't follow their directions. Put on your seat belt, then drive into something stationary, like a dumpster or lamp post. The airbag and seat belt will keep you alive, and the crash will draw attention. It is better to be in a car accident than get raped and possibly killed. Stay calm and try to surprise the rapist.

9] Understand that Vans are the most common vehicles used in rapes. Rapists will park next to the driver's side and, as you are trying to get in, they will pull you into the van. If there is a van on the driver's side of your car, go in through the passenger's door. If there are vans on both sides, go back to where you were and get someone like a security guard to walk you to your car. Don't park any place that feels unsafe.

10] Practice being careful when going into your house or car because someone could easily push you in and lock the door behind you. Be aware of your surroundings; carry your keys ready in your hand and look around you before opening the door.

11] Keep personal information private. Don't advertise your info verbally or on the Internet. Also, be very wary of meeting up with anyone whom you meet on the Internet. There is never a good reason to meet up with a person whom you have never met in person, or who talks you into meeting-up when you are hesitant. If you think you must do so, bring someone else, preferably a friend who is older and meet the person in a public place.

12] Notice and leave identifying marks. A large bite mark on their face, punctured eyeball, deeply scratched leg, ripped out piercing etc. is easily identifiable, as are memorable tattoos, etc. Think kill. Go for weak spots like eyes (poke hard), nose (hard upward motion with the lower part of your open hand) genitals (grab really tightly and squeeze or punch hard) etc. to make sure the person's hands aren't free to punch or hold on to you and you can run for it. If you are in a place where you can't run, notice your surroundings and leave a mark on them if you can. Rapists have been caught because their victims left identifiable teeth marks, nail marks, or DNA in the cars or rooms where they were assaulted.

FINALLY, PLEASE REMEMBER THESE AS WELL....

I know you are smart enough to know these pointers but there will be some, where you will go "hmm I must remember that" After reading, forward it to someone you care about, never hurts to be careful in
this crazy world we live in.

  1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it, do it.


  1. Learned this from a tourist guide to New Orleans: if a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you.... chances are that he is more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you and he will go for the wallet/purse. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!


  1. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car: Kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like crazy. The driver won't see you but everybody else will. This has saved lives.


  1. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc. DON'T DO THIS! The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head, and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU CLOSE the DOORS, LEAVE.


  1. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage:


a. Be aware: look around your car as someone may be hiding at the passenger side, peek into your car, inside the passenger side floor, and in the back seat. (DO THIS TOO BEFORE RIDING A TAXI CAB).

b. If you! U are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars.

c. Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard /policeman to walk you back out. IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.)

  1. ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot).


  1. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; and even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN!


  1. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP IT! It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked "for help" into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim.


I'd like you to forward this to all the women you know. It may save a life. A candle is not dimmed by lighting another candle. I was going to send this to the ladies only, but guys, if you love your mothers, wives, sisters, daughters, etc., you may want to pass it onto them, as well.

Send this to any woman you know that may need to be reminded that the world we live in has a lot of crazies in it and it's better safe than sorry.


?Helping hands are better than Praying Lips? ? give us your helping hand.

Take care.
OP posts:
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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 01:40

Maybe the best tip of all the the general public is:

MEN! Don't rape women. Thank you.

I hate all that FaceBook shit. The 'don't rape women' list isn't a joke - it's fucking serious and puts the onus where it belongs.

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LilBlondePessimist · 27/01/2013 01:42

Achillea, I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. I do agree with you that a lack of fear, or even showing that you aren't frightened can thwart an attack. My mother admits that she completely froze and was badly damaged as a result. She believes that had she fought back she might have had a chance. But she'll never know as no one was ever caught.

However, knowledge and ability are power, and it can only be a positive to be in possession of both.

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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 01:47

Yes, but if men were advised not to rape women, that would be best.

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Trekkie · 27/01/2013 01:48

Lilblonde I think that it is others who are seeing what they want rather than what is written:

"1] Understand that your hairstyle could benefit an attacker:
Ponytails and long hair are the number one styles rapists seek because long hair and ponytails are easy to grab. Women with short hair are not common targets. But there are exceptions."

How on earth is this helpful? Most young women have long hair. Many wear ponytails. To tell women that to have long hair /wear a ponytail makes them vulnerable is preposterous. Rape will not go away if women cut their hair short. I wear a ponytail at work sometimes, my DD has to tie her hair back for school. Most women with long hair tie it back from time to time, in public. Clearly women and girls are not about to cut their hair off or stop tying it back. And some of them will be raped. And this is not their fault for not having short hair - it is the rapist's fault for raping them. And frankly the very idea that women's hairstyles are to blame for rape is so preposterously, ludicrously offensive I don't know where to put it.

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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 01:51

Why not just tell men not rape women? With or without pony tails?

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LilBlondePessimist · 27/01/2013 01:54

But no one is saying that having long hair/wearing it in a certain way puts the blame on the female for rape. What they are trying to point out is that there is a precaution you can take if you so wish that may help to make you safer if you are in that position. I don't understand why people are so quick to find offense in that.

Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if we could wag our fingers at all criminals and say 'now that is wrong, don't do that!' and they just stopped?! I would gladly have been out of a job if that was the case. But it's not. And while it still happens then everyone should be able to be advised on how to make themselves safer, no?

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LilBlondePessimist · 27/01/2013 01:57

Linerunner, I don't see how your facetious remark has any place in this discussion. That, I find offensive.

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Trekkie · 27/01/2013 01:57

How many teenagers/young women do you know with short hair? Do you honestly think telling women & girls to cut their hair off is thoughtful, practical, sensible advice?

And do you genuinely believe that if all women and girls cut their hair short, the incidence of rape would diminish?

I mean, really? That is silly, you get that, I think.

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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 01:59

A precaution? Not having a certain hairstyle?

A precaution against rape?

Oh you do come across as someone I might want to think of as fucking right off.

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Trekkie · 27/01/2013 01:59

it's not facetious. There are ads on the TV at the moment aimed at men and rape. The govt, in these days of austerity, obviously thinks it is a good message. Worth saying. So don't dismiss it as facetious.

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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 02:01

Trust me, I am not being fecetious; I am being deadly serious.

I have a place in this discussion because I am in it.

Rape will stop because male behaviour will change.

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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 02:04

Oh, and if you find a woman's heartfelt and serious remarks about men raping women 'facetious', then that's concerning.

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LilBlondePessimist · 27/01/2013 02:11

Can you point put where I've advised young women, or any women for that matter to cut their hair? 'it could be as simple as tucking your hair into your jacket', was what I actually said as a piece of advice for if someone felt that they were in a vulnerable situation.

Again, can you show me where I said you had no place in this discussion, your facetious remark was what I had the problem with. But if you want to resort to swearing at me then that's your perogative. I'm going to leave this thread now, because as I've seen happen to do many other people who won't toe your feminist line, my words and sentiment are being twisted and when a discussion is reduced to that then its not one worthy of being in.

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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 02:16

I wasn't being facetious.

I was being serious.

Men should be told to stop raping women; and not women be told to stop looking and acting in a way in a way might not being preventing rape enough.

If that's my feminist line, as the mother of a son and a daughter, then I'm very proud of it actually.

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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 02:28

Anyway off to bed and I hope we can all agree that perpetrators are the bad guys.

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Charlizee · 27/01/2013 03:55

"Therefore if they're both initiating/reacting positively then it's consensual sex, it doesn't matter how drunk either of them are. "

This completely contradicts what feminists generally tend to say about this.

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PoppettyPing · 27/01/2013 04:48

No it doesn't! FFS! You are not getting it are you? Bertiebots has explained it like, 5 times. And your comment about a campaign about women not making false accusations is ridiculous. The amount of women who make false rape accusations is very very small. Women deal with a load of horrible mistrust from police and society when they ARE sexually assaulted and make a report! So a greater number of men who are rightfully reported often escape conviction! Grr these kind of comments make my blood boil

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amillionyears · 27/01/2013 08:01

It is the first thread where I have easily seen obvious attempts at derailment.

But at least the subject was still able to be discussed.


I think
a.the trouble with precautions is, a bit like Health and Safety, you cannot measure how much of it was effective.
b.In an ideal world there would be lots of UK research about whether there is a pattern as to how a rapist chooses their victim. Talking about stranger rape, not other types.

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StewieGriffinsMom · 27/01/2013 08:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rosabud · 27/01/2013 08:44

Having got over my rant and decided that, yes, I can just competely and utterly ignore inane comments from those who don't understand what rape is (it's putting your willy in someone without them agreeing to it first, hardly rocket science) and go back to the debate and join in sensibly, I return to find that people have reduced to nit-picking over one particular issue and misunderstanding each other.

It would be interesting to know how many rapes/attacks Lilblondepessimist investigated where she honestly felt that if only the victim had not a certain hairstyle, the attack could have been thwarted. Probably very few. However, I think the main point she is making is not that certain hairstyles may make you vulnerable to attack, but that if you are going to be in a vulnerable position (such as being out late. alone or whatever) then thinking about tucking your hair out of sight might give you a sight advantage should an attack occur. Similarly, I don't think that when linerunner and trekkie say "men should be told not to rape" they are imagining scenarios where we wag our fingers at rapists and tell them they are naughty. They are referring quite seriously to things like awareness campaigns about rape and the notion that there should be a general sea-change in society about attitudes to rape/men's entitlement to sex etc.

Sadly rape is still happening in our society. So is burglary. That's why we have campaigns reminding us to lock doors and windows, leave lights on when out etc etc. However,I think that it is very difficult to advise people how to avoid rape because there are so many different/varied scenarios from domestic abuse to stranger-rape to grooming etc. And each rapist is so different. For every rapist who WILL run off at the first sign of the victim yelling and fighting back, there is a rapist who would actually welcome this response.

At the end of the day, this particular piece of "self-defence" advice is not overly helpful as it's all a bit general and even contradictory, as many have already pointed out. Also, it's annoying/offensive because it does fall into the more old-fashined "women, you should take more care" awareness route rather than the more modern approach which is finally starting to seep through of "rape should be tackled at root-cause and not considered a sad inevitability" awareness route.

To me the article is saying, "women, do you know there are dangerous rapists out there and there's a few minor things you could do if you are walking home late at night that may give you a slim advantage, which we could put under the general lable of 'keeping your wits about you'?" To which the response of most women in today's society would surely be, "err......yes, I did know that already thankyou very much."

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amillionyears · 27/01/2013 08:44

I would like to read the research.
Where can I find it please?
I cant see anything on the internet, perhaps I have not googled correctly.

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DontEvenThinkAboutIt · 27/01/2013 09:51

I am re posting my post. (sorry MNHQ)

^As mentioned by other posters this 'article' has been doing the rounds for at least 10 YEARS. I can't stand this type of thing being circulated.

There are lots of credible places to go for information about how to protect yourself from rape. Facebook is not one of them^


This article does not warrant ANY comment.

It is FALSE INFORMATION

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BertieBotts · 27/01/2013 11:04

It's bollocks anyway. If there is a mythical rapist going around with his scissors looking for women in ponytails and unlocked cars, and happens not to see any, do you think he's going to say "Oh well, never mind, better luck tomorrow night" and go home? I don't think so - if he's that intent on raping that he's pre-prepared his equipment, then he's just going to look for the most vulnerable/easy target. So the "advice" doesn't stop the rape from happening. It just means that it happens to somebody else. That's not okay! That doesn't prevent anything!

That's why we need to target the behaviour/thought process of the rapist and get these rape myths consigned to being as ridiculous as the old law that a man is allowed to beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his thumb. Get conviction rates up and that will deter the people who know what they're doing and don't care, challenge myths and beliefs and some potential rapists might even change their thinking and realise that what they thought was okay perhaps isn't.

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LineRunner · 27/01/2013 17:16

rosabud Yes, spot on.

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MidnightMasquerader · 27/01/2013 18:25

...if he's that intent on raping that he's pre-prepared his equipment, then he's just going to look for the most vulnerable/easy target. So the "advice" doesn't stop the rape from happening. It just means that it happens to somebody else. That's not okay! That doesn't prevent anything!

I so often think that the reason a lot of people just do not get feminism is because they struggle with holistic, bigger-picture thinking, and this is another example of that.

So much of feminist thought is about how women as a group experience thing, and the impact of X/Y/Z on women at a population level. And people who can't really see beyond their own noses just can't relate to this.

The quote above is a perfect example of this. Feminists are - naturally - concerned about rape as a problem in terms of how it affects and impacts on women as a whole. It's something which feminists recognise as needing to be tackled at a fundamental, grassroots level - and telling women to stay safe and alter their behaviour does not and will never do that.

People who struggle to think 'bigger-picture' see that altering their behaviour might potentially save them from being raped, and OK, that's not all that matters, to perhaps be fair to them, but certainly the main thing that matters.

To feminists, this isn't enough. Because although one woman might (only might) be saved from a rapist, the next woman won't be, so the issue still 100% exists; it's just been transferred onto someone else.

This is why the 'men: please do not rape' message is so important to try to effect a sea-change in thinking. As I said before, even if it takes a generation for that to happen, surely it is worth a try?

I don't know if I'm really explaining myself well, but to me this is yet another example of how one side of the argument just doesn't seem to be able to widen their vision out to see what the rest of us are actually saying...

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