Feminism for dummies

[Nigglenaggle]

Hi. I have never really read much about feminism, but I always thought, in its essence, it was about bringing equality for men and women. however reading threads in this section has lead me to believe in fact that is not the case. In fact I've come to wonder if that is even a large part of it. Please explain to me, in plain English, what feminism is. An overview of the different schools of thought within it would be welcome, however please stick to simple terms, for a simple girl

[HalloweenNameChange]

I guess also I have been thinking that equality is sort of redundant because we have it

What ?! When did that happen! haven't read my feminist round up newsletter this week yet...

[KRITIQ]

Nigglenaggle, you've said you believe gender equality has been sorted, based on your own workplace experience (but cite the need for "further tweaks" even there,) and what appear to be erroneous assumptions about links between gender and discrimination, oppression and violence.

Okay, if you are in a workplace where you say you feel gender equality has been achieved, congratulations! You are in a very privileged position if that is the case. However, with privilege comes responsibility - responsibility to accept that not everyone is in your shoes, not everyone's experience conforms to your experience, and just because you are privileged does not entitle you to make pronouncements about the lives and experiences of others - lives and experiences you know very little about.

Having a pop at Any for calling you up on your lack of knowledge and experience of gender-based violence and your choice of words (sorry, saying you "aren't good with words" or "aren't good at tact," too often is used as an escape clause for someone who doesn't care if their language is hurtful to others or worse, knows it is but doesn't want to take any responsibility for hurting others,) suggests that you DO feel entitled to make pronouncements about things you know little about. Patronising is another term that springs to mind. So, don't expect to be greeted with a mug of cocoa and biscuits in a forum that discusses Feminism.

[AbigailAdams]

"FGM luckily not a big problem in the UK." Educate yourself. Here is a good place to start
And here
And here

"I don't see domestic violence as a problem of abuse by men against women, so much as a problem of wankers against the weak." Where to start! Where do you find women intimidating, bullying, frightening, beating up men? Where are the men whose partners force them to have unwanted sex? Where are the men fleeing to shelters in fear of their lives? Where do you find all these violent women? They are rare. Lets start by Naming the Problem for what it is. The problem is violent men. And DV has nothing to do with being weak. That is offensive and ignorant.

"the female only right to maternity leave has been a massive issue for us" Why? Because you actually have to face up to the fact that women give birth to children and to do that requires time and effort? That is only a problem if you think that women should be more like men and in fact women and children are an inconvenience. Women ignoring our biological functions or minimising the effects and what we do, is not equality. It is accepting that men are the default and women are, well, a bit wrong. that is not to say that I don't think men should ahve more and better paternity leave. They should. Anything to encourage men to take on the childcare responsibilities.

"That's worse than any inequality we still face as women (in the UK)." Oh yes. That man having to go through a formality (which btw wouldn't have been required if he was married to the poor woman who died) is definitely worse than:
2 women a week being murdered by their partners;
1 in 4 women suffering sexual assault;
6% of rape cases getting convictions;
the fact that women do not have bodily autonomy;
the gender pay gap;
the daily verbal abuse on the street;
the countless other minor sexisms women put up with every day.

In fact it is worse than the man's partner dying in childbirth. Talk about making it all about him.

"feminism is about equal rights for all". No it isn't. It is about equal rights for women. It is about women's liberation from the oppression of men. Feminism is not about campaigning for racial equality or gay and lesbian rights or disabled rights. There is overlap, but central to feminism is women.

[TunipTheVegedude]

BTW Nigglenaggle, I'd be grateful if you would read this.

FGM still happens to women who live in this country despite being illegal. It's another way in which the rosy picture of equality doesn't look quite so good once you scratch beneath the surface.

[TunipTheVegedude]

xposts Abigail

[Oldladypillow]

I work in an industry that has gender equality - means nothing until I stop hearing the guff that some men come out with and we stop seeing porn images of women on the front on papers.

[Nigglenaggle]

OK. I think the crux of my problem with all this is thus: you all want women not to be stereotyped - as sex objects, for example. But some of you stereotype men, and seem to feel thats fine. Some of you tar all (or even most) with the brush of domestic violence, genital mutilation etc. Which seems unfair. It is sexist. If you were racist or homophobic it would not be tolerated, but some of you expect to be treated differently, and are surprised when people are offended. Some of you abuse anyone holding a different point of view, and expect people to listen to and respect you. Some of you get upset at any hint of debate.

And one or two of you have attempted to answer my questions and explain things to my only wondering and unintentionally offensive voice. So thanks for that. I'll dodge the thrown items now and creep off to a calmer area.

[scottishmummy]

is there men bashing on mn. yes but everyone,gets a mn bashing
theres also bashing of working mum,housewife,so frankly state your pov,pile in
its much better fem topics now,the histrionic shouters aren't here as much.they flounced

[AbigailAdams]

Where Niggle? Where has anyone tarred all men with the same brush?

[AbigailAdams]

Oh and saying we get upset at a hint of a debate is an attempt to silence and stifle debate. You don't know whether we are upset and so what if we are? Some of these issues matter and are worth getting upset over.

[scottishmummy]

a good ideological argument is stimulating,if the name calling can be avoided
i expect to be disagreed with on points, dont need posters to concur with me
mn is robust, but thats what i like

[Trills]

Did you post that on the wrong thread, OP? It doesn't seem to have any relationship to the posts I have read.

[PortoDude]

Who was talking about stereotyping anyone?

[grimbletart]

Nigglenaggle: you can't afford to be a sensitive flower on MN. I've been a feminist since I was a little girl (60+ years ago) and because I posted something that was deemed critical of women I was told by one of the self-describe radical feminists no longer posting here that I did not understand feminism. Considering I had lived it for my entire life I found that amusing (though it was indeed deeply offensive).

[OneMoreChap]

In passing AbigailAdams
You enquired Where do you find women intimidating, bullying, frightening, beating up men? Where are the men whose partners force them to have unwanted sex? Where are the men fleeing to shelters in fear of their lives? Where do you find all these violent women? They are rare. Lets start by Naming the Problem for what it is. The problem is violent men. And DV has nothing to do with being weak. That is offensive and ignorant.

Of course, you're aware that the definition of DV has changed?

Some of your figures - and your rhetoric - are beginning to sound a tad dated...

25% of DV against men

150% rise in women convicted of DV over 5 years

40% of DV victims male

Shelter's advice for male DV victims

So, you know, your attitude that it's all one sided? And, you know, people being offensive and ignorant?

Have a wee think.

[PortoDude]

Oh OneMoreChap - bless you for trying. There are lots of informed pieces out there that explain those figures very well. How many men do you know that have had to flee their partners because they fear for themselves and their children? How many press reports do you read on the subject of women's violence against men? How often do you hear of cases where a man has accused a women of sexual assault?

Of course these things happen. No-one denies it. But these cases are hugely in the minority.

[PortoDude]

The statistics you mention do not go in to any detail as to who the perpetrator was. Was it another MAN perchance? - not every man lives with a woman. To what degree was the recorded violence due to retaliation/self preservation etc?

[namechangeguy]

It shouldn't matter though. Violence is violence, and nobody should be subjected to it. Is it more acceptable if a women is attacked by her female partner, or a random woman in a club? Sometimes it seems like people want to out-victim each other. Nobody should have to accept being the victim of violence in any scenario, regardless of the gender of the perpetrator.

[ecclesvet]

Actually, that's an interesting point - are fights between house-mates counted as domestic violence?

[ashesgirl]

No one is condoning violence.

But we are asking questions about who is perpertrating it.

[ashesgirl]

And why that is.

[namechangeguy]

I could not possibly comment, as I did not ask the question. But the point about whether another man was responsible was raised in the case of a male sufferer, and yet women-on-women violence was not brought up. It seemed a little lop-sided.

My gut feel is that there is more male-perpetrated DV, but I don't have any stats on the matter. I just think it's all sad. If I was a victim, I don't think I would care whether my attacker was male or female. I would just want it to stop.

[ashesgirl]

Of course, NCG. But feminism is about looking at overall trends rather than individual cases and challenging why they occur.

If 89% of violent offences are committed by men, wouldn't you be interested in what biological or social reasons are behind that? To examine and then try and change that?

(I believe I read that stat in an earlier link on there - pls correct me if I'm wrong)

[namechangeguy]

Very interested. Back in an hour or 2 though, when I'd like to discuss it more. TTFN.

[PortoDude]

ncg - but you posted "statistics" re domestic violence with the aim of showing that WOMEN are guilty in large proportions too. The statistics might show that more men are subject to dv - but they don't show that it is women that are responsible.