Apparently I can't be a feminist because I changed my name when I married.

[dustandfluff]

I heard someone (a feminist writer dunno who) on Radio 4 a few months ago saying women who change their names when they get married are not feminists.

. I have long been interested in feminism and women's rights. I appreciate the feminist arguments against changing your name. I had my reasons but I don't think that's relevant here. To me this sounds as though to "be" a feminist you have to meet a particular standard.

I think this is the kind of thing that puts a lot of women off the movement.

Opinion s anyone?

What I mean is that for most (I repeat most!) people, their maiden name is their father's family name because their mother would have taken it when they got married (or given it to their children even if they don't use it). So you are refusing to take on your husband's name so you can keep your fathers. Just seems a bit odd to me.

Yes, my name is my father's name (though interestingly, his name is his mother's name, she was a single mum).

The point about that though is that I have had that name from birth, for whatever reason - it's my name. It may be patriarchal and that's a situation I would like to see change, but the fact is it's my name now. Just as a man's name is his name when he marries, even if it was his dad's. So from that POV, men and women enter marriage on an equal footing. The fact that one gender is generally expected to change their name is sexist, and if they do, even if there's no direct pressure from the man, that is not feminist.

Can they be a feminist, even if they do such an unfeminist thing? I don't know... I just can't see why someone who is a feminist would do it. It's like always making the tea at work because you're the only woman, then saying it's fine because you want to do it and it's a trivial matter. Maybe it is, but you are reinforcing sexism.

I took my DH's surname and don't give two hoots what people think about that.

I'll be honest though, it wasn't my choice alone, someone else had a hand in the decision.

No - not my DH - but my DS1.

DS1 was the result of a failed relationship in my late teens. DH has been DS1's dad since he was 2-years old and had legally adopted him (DS1's real father hasn't ever seen him, not even once).

When making the decision whether to change my surname, I asked DS1 whether he would want to change his (if I did), and he stunned me by saying he would want to change his even if I didn't. He was only 6-years old at the time, but he seemed certain he wanted to share his name with his dad, the man who loved him like his own.

How could I argue with that? That made my decision for me.

Screw what anyone else thinks.

In my case my surname isn't my father's, but even if it was it would still be my name which I have had all my life.

But you're not refusing to take your husband's name because he's a -shock, horror - man, are you?

It's just because only women are expected to change their names, as if marriage gives you a totally re-born identity.

tess - that's very sweet.

Oh and I forgot to say, I can't get precious over a name, to me it's just a label. It doesn't change the person inside.

Tess is still the same person that Tess was. Well she's slightly older now, and thinks she's starting to go grey, but other than that.

I just can't see why someone who is a feminist would do it

For an easy life?

Have everything in one name, not have people referring to me as Mrs W in one context and Miss X in another. So I didn't have to explain every time someone asks why one of us has a different name from the children.

I just don't really need that extra level of admin in my life.

I've explained why I changed my name. And I do consider my self a feminist. Interesting that you say it didn't change you, Tess, because I had the opposite experience. It did change how I felt about myself, and for the better.

I should say, that DS1 is now almost 13 (how did that happen?!), and already has his own opinion on this issue.

He's happy with the decision we made together seven years ago, but he now understands you don't all need to have the same name to be a family, as he has friends where they have different surnames to one of their parents. "They're still a family though Mum."

So he said if he ever gets married, he would never expect his wife to take his surname, and if she did keep her name he wouldn't insist on the children having his surname, "even though it's a really cool surname."

When I asked him if he'd consider changing his to hers, he said, "well like I said Mum, our surname is really cool, so I'd double-barrel. I'd want to keep our name. But I wouldn't expect my wife to double-barrel, or the children to have that name, unless my wife wanted it."

I don't really get that argument woozley. If you keep your name entirely, you don't need two different names or any confusion.

As for the admin, the admin involved in changing your name on all your bank stuff, passport, payslips, contacts etc etc etc is quite major isn't it?

Chickens - I think it probably did change how I felt about myself, but it didn't change me as a person, in terms of how others see me. Does that make sense?

I didn't have a personality transplant overnight, is what I was trying to say!

Yes, Tess, I get you. I have a large trunk of baggage around names, so I suppose it felt a bit like a rebirth for me, and a welcome one. If changing my name was unfeminist, I can live with that. It made a huge difference to my mental health .

For me I got married in my early 20s (14 years ago) I took my husbands name,I probably wouldn't make the same choice again.My original surname is truly horrible(joke worthy)
My married name is what I was known at in my career .I divorced with 2 kids in my late 20s I wanted to keep the sur name as not changing my name back was claiming this name as mine . I also wanted to have the same surname as my children.
About 4 years ago I returned to Ireland,people presumed that my current name was my birth name.So when my parents moved to the area everyone in the area thought that was their surname.My Dad was not happy being referred to as Mr ex husband name!!

A name is essentially a random word that becomes attached to you. However bad things feel at times, we are NOT chattels to be traded between men any longer. Traditions endure - the tradition varies according to your society, another random element you are born into - and personally I feel neutral about the tradition of name-changing on marriage.

However, I am surprised by the number of women who behave as though choosing to call yourself your original name is an act of distasteful and childish rebellion. I will call myself what I want, thanks, same as they do.

The history of name changing is the woman being passed from father to husband like a parcel, just a change of ownership with the owner's label attached.

That doesn't sit comfortably with feminism as far as I am concerned.

'When a woman changes her name on marriage, but doesn't expect her husband to do the same, it tells her husband, her kids, her colleagues, and basically everyone in the world "As a woman I am not as important as him". It just does'

Completely agree Begonia. My best friend has recently had a baby and has changed her last name to her DH's, which is also baby's last name. I feel downright sad about this - her own name reflects her Italian heritage (of which she is very proud) and her DP is a total twunt. She made the choice a long time ago that he is the most important person in their marriage and this name-change is just another example of that. She's my friend and I wish I could shake her by the shoulders and tell her that she is worth so much more than him, but hey, it's her choice so I keep my nose where it belongs. But I think she's being a fool.

I wouldn't say that name-changing means that you can't be a feminist but I do think that feminists who change their name to their husbands are kidding themselves about their reasons for doing it and the message it sends. And protesting that it's like such a completely trivial issue is a total cop-out IMHO.

I agree.

"The history of name changing is the woman being passed from father to husband like a parcel, just a change of ownership with the owner's label attached.

That doesn't sit comfortably with feminism as far as I am concerned. "

Yes, this.

It's the social assumption that a woman will change her name that needs to be broken. That way if a woman does change her name, for whatever reason, it will be an active, rather than a passive, decision made by her.

I have the same name as my son. DP often gets called Mr Waspie as a result but he's a grown up - he can handle it and if he felt that strongly about having the same name as his son he could change his to our name.

But the whole chattel/property thing is gone (on the whole). What we have left over is a naming tradition which is in turn slowly dying out. Just a tradition, not a rule or a law. I feel really very neutral about people changing or 'keeping' their names in any context. Marriage is about togetherness for loads of us and changing your name can be part of advertising your cohesion, perhaps? (I don't know, I'm not a name changer.)

I kept my own name. For me would have seemed odd not too. But I don't attach a huge moral weight to whether a woman decides to use her husband's name or her father's (father's father's ...) name, which successively obliterates women over generations. There are more important decisions.

Oh, I was well aware of the message I was sending, Lotta. But I agree it is not a trivial issue

I'm sorry, but I do think it's a trivial matter. Like I said, I can't get worked up about whether a woman changes her name or not, to me names are just labels.

I know what the whole name change thing used to stand for, but that isn't what it stands for now, just as marriage doesn't stand for what it used to either.

If you choose to keep your name, that's great, and I certainly don't see it as rebellion or whatever. I simply see it as a choice.

To judge someone for the decision they made, as to whether to keep their name or change it, is quite frankly ridiculous. I'm a better person than to judge someone about that.

That is nonsense, Tess. You may think yourself a better person, but that doesn't make you one.

And all the little "trivial" things go together to form the great big one that is the position of women still: second class.

'I feel really very neutral about people changing or 'keeping' their names in any context'

But it's not just 'people' - it's almost always women. It's virtually always the man's name that is adopted as the 'family' name.

I hate my last name - no-one can spell it or say it correctly - and I have a horrible relationship with my parents. I have no attachment to it whatsoever but I can't imagine changing it because I would never want people to assume that I had taken DP's name, which is probably what most people would think, and I am deeply uncomfortable with the message that would send.