Having a sex preference for your baby

[WannabeEarthMomma]

I'm not a mum (not started ttc yet!) but I'm interested in discussing how others feel about having a preference for a certain sex when having a baby.

I was a tomboy as a kid (my mum indulged my preference for short hair and trousers and assumed that I was gay), and although I'm more in touch with my inner diva these days, I continue to not give a monkeys about conforming to some ideal of womanhood. I think it's good to teach kids about gender roles but let them know that it's fine to not always conform to them if they don't want to. I also think that having a sex preference for your unborn is kind of daft because your choice doesn't decide the outcome anyway! Unless you have a doctor intervene in a way that is possibly illegal(?) then it's up to Mother Nature what you actually get, and whatever your preference, you've a 50% chance of being disappointed. Also, continuing to procreate more than you originally meant to, just in order to get the other sex, seems very unfair on your family, surely it's better to decide on how many children you'd like, regardless of their sex?

Nevertheless, I have found myself reading about natural sex selection theories, (which I think are at best, a long-shot) and thinking that if it were actually possible, I'd probably choose to have a boy! I'm a terrible traitor to the entire world of feminists/lgbt/gender-non-conformists! It's completely stupid because how on Earth would I know that the prodigal son would be anything like I expected him to be. I might sit down to play Legos with him and he might be more interested in Barbie!!!

Joking aside, I do genuinely have this mental image of me as a doting mum of an adult son that makes me go all gooey. Legends of the Fall is one of my fave soppy films to watch because of the 3 very good-looking brothers (one of them is Brad Pitt ) and the thought of having some mummy's boys in my home seems lovely to me. Even though I'd know I'd be happy to have children of any variety, I can't help feeling like I'd be more happy to hear 'it's a boy!'

Do/did you have a sex preference for your unborn offspring? Do you think it is natural to have a certain preference, perhaps for some Freudian psychological reason? Or am I simply a red-blooded heterosexual who has seen too many male-dominated romantic movies, and I'm putting males onto a pedestal?

[Whitamakafullo]

When I was pregnant with DS I wanted a girl. When I found out at ye scan I was a little bit disappointed for about 10 minutes then got over it and was looking forward to meeting my son.

The second time I genuinely had no preference but was delighted with the arrival of DD

[thunksheadontable]

It is interesting how they pick up the wider social influence. When ds was just over two he rejected a cup we gave him because it was pink and that was for girls, which I guess he picked up through nursery/advertising/a combination of both. We had a talk with him about this, well in so far as you can with a two year old. We showed him lots of pictures on the internet of daddies wearing pink and mummies wearing blue, vice versa and the same with little boys and girls: dragged out mummy's blue dress and daddy's pink shirt etc.

We also really prioritise talking through every day (highs and lows), telling stories, drama and role playing etc with our boys, telling them how much we love them, modelling negotiation and conflict resolution, emotional language, communicating openly in front of them etc because I really believe you've got to keep communication at the forefront with boys and fight against the idea that action takes precedence over words.

Knights, pirates and Toy Story are a big deal in our house and we go with this, but we have rules that you can't have e.g. a sword fight with someone unless you ask their permission first, you have to keep your sword off their body and if they want to stop you do it with no questions asked. Jesse is as likely to rescue someone as Buzz. Good point about the Octonauts, had sort of missed that..

I hope it will work out. I wouldn't be comfortable with telling my son he was an "oppressor of women" though, feels like a route to a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. I think you have to model in your life and your relationship what it is you want, be mindful of outside influences and challenge them but not in a way that is shaming of an individual boy or man either.... as they get older, talking about objectification of women and not buying into that makes sense as well as being aware of what advantages they do have... but couching this in terms that will make them feel trapped by it just doesn't really seem sensible to me.

[MORCAPS]

On a more feminist note, I have two conventionally attractive, white, wealthy males to raise.

They do have automatic privilige in todays world, I can't change that, but I can teach them to be mindful of that fact and to try to use their advantages to even stuff up and to have the world be a better place because they are in it.

Who knows how they will turn out, if it they are anything like their father and uncles and grandfathers I will be very happy indeed.

I have had this very conversation with a Filipino friend who has daughters. We noticed that her elder daughter was deferring to my elder son and were both shocked at how this could be happening. We are both successful powerful women and here we were watching this happening without really thinking about it. We have both spoken to our children to my DS it is not assume he is in charge and the boss and the same to her daughter. But it can seem a little bit like a losing battle when the outside pressure starts to outweigh the family dynamic.

[MORCAPS]

I didn't mind for my first, either way would have been fine.

But I was keen on a brother for DS1 when I was pregnant with DS2.

I am very close to my sisters and do of course love my brothers, but my brothers have a very special relationship with each other. DH and his sister get on just fine, but they just don't have the same intensity of closeness that I have with my sisters and my brothers have with each other.

Would have been just fine with a daughter, but already watching the boys together I see that they 'get' each other in the same way my brothers do and am very pleased for them and hopeful for their futures together.

We are only having the two so I am happy that they have each other like this.

[DefenceAgainstTheDarkArts]

Funny I found this, as I started a thread about trying for a girl when I TTC next year. I am going to be TTC as a single parent, and the idea of raising a son alone I find really daunting. I don't feel as anxious about raising a daughter alone. I have no idea why!

[AxlRosesLeatherTrousers]

I did have a preference in both my pregnancies. I always saw myself as a mother of girls, added that I had no experience of boys either. Having 1 sister and having brought up DSD I loved the idea of girls. When I was pregnant with dd1 and they couldn't tell me the sex at the 20 week scan (little blighter had her legs crossed ) I was convinced she was a boy. When she was born I'll admit I was relieved she was a girl. Funny thing is she's the biggest "tomboy" going, hates skirts and dresses and all things frilly and wears trousers and shorts, plays with Lego all the time (which I know isn't exclusively for boys) prefers cars and trucks to dolls. She would love to have all her hair cut off and have it short but I'm afraid I can't bring myself to allow it. Her hair is just so gorgeously lush, very very thick blonde hair down her back, so we compromise and I tie it up all the time.

With dd2 I knew she was a girl even before we found out at the scan. And yes I was pleased that she was a girl rather than a boy.

[Sparklyboots]

I have a son, who I had mid-thirties after dithering loads because I was really worried about having children - especially girls - in our patriarchal culture. When I was in my twenties, I basically thought that socialising a girl for our world was an act of betrayal - that teaching her to be a 'good girl' would be betraying her. I also worried that teaching her to resist would be equally as troubling because I experienced my feminist awakening as quite painful - it problematised all of my relationships, meant I couldn't watch the telly without becoming a seething mass of rage, etc.

I also worried more generally that my values WRT feminism and gender relationships would be complicated in my children with how they experienced me as a mother - so they might feel let down by some aspects of my mothering (as I have sometimes felt in relation to my own mother) and they might reject my gender/ politics as a result of this rather than because they believed in the righteousness of patriarchy or whatever. Or they might think I was a terrible mother because I was a feminist rather than because of my personal failings - and I would hate inadvertently to have created some awful far right activists because of my personal failings.

Though I still have concerns, I have had some therapy which helped me overcome my fear of being a toxic mother. I don't think we've worked it all out yet, but I do think I want to teach my son about privilege, including gender privilege. I don't know how I'm going to do it - that's half the reason I am on MN, and really thinking hard about my parenting, including a lot of reading and a lot of discussion with like-minded parents. I do have an idle fantasy that we'll address porn directly - by actually looking at some and critiquing it with him - but recognise that might stop him watching it for entirely other reasons... But I do know there is an increasing amount of educational material that we might be able to look at together.

We are considering another baby, sort of TTC in a haphazard way, and I'd be pleased with a baby of either gender. I have been emboldened by DS insofar as I don't let things slip (relationship stuff, etc.) because I am so concerned that I don't teach him to treat women badly where in the past I have allowed myself to be treated with less than full respect - out of exhaustion? fear? laziness? denial? - I'm not sure why. But there's no way I'm accepting it for or from my son. I hope it's not too fucked up to draw that kind of strength from your children.

[BelleCurve]

This is a great speech by Tony Porter, who talks about breaking out of the "man box".

Maybe not for pre-schoolers, but useful for teenagers - www.ted.com/talks/tony_porter_a_call_to_men.html

For very young children, you can teach them about bodily autonomy, that it is not ok to touch people without their consent. You can show them you and DH taking equal responsibility for household chores, respecting each other.

You can role model being an active feminist campaigner, take toddlers on "million women rise" and discuss it with them, limit exposure to images you consider harmful (adverts, music videos etc), discuss critically the depiction of female characters - "why shouldn't Dashi the Octononaut go on a mission this time?"

Hang around the FWR boards for lots of great ideas!

[SarryB]

From the moment I found out I was pregnant, I assumed it was a boy. Had a boy's name picked from about 2 months. Had LO turned out to be a girl, I would've been very surprised indeed.

I like to think that by the time LO is grown-up fighting for equal rights will be a thing of the past, and we will laugh about how women used to be seen as second-class citizens.

[thunksheadontable]

I accept privilege re: gendercide, fgm etc on world stage but don't agree with analysis of toys/play etc. Boys are less likely to be talked to and interacted with and to hear their own name vs generic nicknames, their language and academics trail little girls as activity is not prized but has been pushed, they are more likely to have sen. Forced into gender stereotypes? Hell yeah. Privileged? Not at this age. Does it keep the patriarchy ticking? Yup, but that doesn't necessarily amount to privilege or oppression.

[summerflower]

So the question really is, how do we - as the mothers of sons - go some way to counter the huge, huge, huge pressures and expectations they recieve about their attitudes and behaviours?

[BelleCurve]

Ok, boys have privilege from the day they are born (or before if the gender is known). In many societies, female gendercide is carried out meaning that meaning that in some places there are 120 baby boys born to 100 girls

here - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendercide.

So they basically have privilege in that they are more likely to survive>

Secondly they are often given more food, when supplies are scarce or just because female infants are culturally expected to eat less.

In Western societies, male infants are praised more for being "big, strong and active", female infants for being "pretty" - Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender is very good on this demonstrating that infants are treated differently by caregivers.

Children's toys are gender segregated from a very young age into more "active" play toys - trucks, diggers and construction for boys, more passive toys for girls. Such gender distinctions are re-inforced by care-givers unconsciously who praise more for playing with the "appropriate" gender toys.

Even small girl's clothing is already more restrictive, more decorative, more appropriate for "sit still and play nicely" than practical boy's clothes for outside, active play and children are praised again for following gender norms at this stage.

By pre-school, many children will have strong ideas about what girl's and boy's can and should be doing, the restrictions and roles which society has imposed on them.

So yes, there are significant privileges even by pre-school.

[thunksheadontable]

What privileges do boys have from preschool? Isn't there a distinction between having advantage because of a system and being misogynist/racist etc?

[HedyLamaar]

"You have to actively choose not to take advantage of privileges you have unfairly"

I cannot actively choose not to take advantage of my white privilege -that is impossible, I have it whether I like it or not.

Sure, I can be mindful about my language and challenge any preconceptions I might have, and challenge racism in others and not burn crosses in folks front gardens and so on. But can I give up my white privilege so that I am on a level playing field with a person of colour? No.

[RiaSponsorsTheOlympics]

I guess I mean you don't have to be part of the system. You have to actively choose not to take advantage of privileges you have unfairly, and to speak out against the system, think about what businesses etc. you support, but recognising your privilege certainly doesn't mean just accepting the status quo.

[HedyLamaar]

"Hedy you seem to be saying there's nothing parents can do to counteract the misogyny of society, but at the same time that we must do something. I don't understand."

I don't have the answer to turning out the perfect non-misogynist male, Ria. If I did, I'd be shouting it from the rooftips, believe me. I do know that just assuming that because you-with-your-feminist-awareness is bringing your son up then you will ensure that he never behaves in a misogynistic way is delusional. I think that there are ways of minimising this, of bringing up boys to be aware of their privilege, but I think this takes a concerted effort and is hard work as you are pushing against everything that the prevailing set-up is telling you to do.

"I assume you are part of at least one privileged class - white/straight/middle class/able bodied/(privately) educated etc. - do you think you're an oppressor?"

Yes.

"I don't think having an advantage means you necessarily exploit the disadvantaged, though you probably have to work harder from that position to not be part of the problem."

You don't have to actively exploit those less advantaged in the system than you are to opress them, you just have to be part of that system as nearly all of us are.

[lastnerve]

My view is quite similar to RiaSponsors,

She has articulated this better than I have.

[HedyLamaar]

winkywinkola - I'm sorry that you are are having such difficulties with your eldest son. Are you getting any support with this? Would it help to talk about it here?

[HedyLamaar]

lastnerve, perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

Men as a class oppress women as a class. My son is male. Therefore he is a member of the class which oppresses women.

Look, this is basic feminist analysis. I'm sorry if you don't like it. I do appreciate that these are thorny issues when it comes to your own Nigels, but you cannot - cannot - pretend to yourself that your son is somehow different, somehow exempt. That makes no sense and is refusing to acknowledge the issue.

[lastnerve]

You said 'my son will grow to oppress women' not every male is a misogynist saying otherwise is just sexist and a bit of a generalization.

[RiaSponsorsTheOlympics]

Hedy you seem to be saying there's nothing parents can do to counteract the misogyny of society, but at the same time that we must do something. I don't understand.

I assume you are part of at least one privileged class - white/straight/middle class/able bodied/(privately) educated etc. - do you think you're an oppressor? I don't think having an advantage means you necessarily exploit the disadvantaged, though you probably have to work harder from that position to not be part of the problem.

[WinkyWinkola]

On a different note, I'm really troubled by my preference. I always always wanted boys but the behaviour of my ds1 continually freaks me out.

I have a dd and ds2. I cried when I found out ds2 was a boy because I was terrified he would be the same as ds1. He's not of course.

Am pg with what I believe to be ds3. Would rather he was dd2 because of my silly fear that my boys will all be the same as ds1 but I'm getting past that.

I feel ashamed about it but have felt so lost and desperate with my first ds.

[Yama]

I also agree with HedyLamaar.

Raising children to see the world clearly for what it is surely must be a good first step. Dh and I speak with our dd about feminism. We'll do the same with ds once he's old enough.

Already though, ds idolises his big sister and everything she is interested in is 'good'. No one in our extended family would be allowed to comment on him playing with any 'girl' toy. Ach, I'm not articulating it well but we actively promote girl = good to our young son.

We are always mindful.

[HedyLamaar]

Thinking that the bad stuff happens to other peoples' daughters and is perpetrated by other peoples' sons is just plain foolish.

If we're feminists then we are looking to name the perpetrators of our oppression, and the perpetrators are men.

So the question really is, how do we - as the mothers of sons - go some way to counter the huge, huge, huge pressures and expectations they recieve about their attitudes and behaviours?

That would be a good conversation to have here, I think. Veganstastebetter - what are your thoughts on this?

[patosullivan]

I kind of agree with HedyLamaar.

While it's wrong to say that all men will oppress and abuse women and behave like misogynist arseholes, I don't think it's realistic to ignore the facts about the society we live in.

Men are more privileged than women. Sure, times have moved on and the situation has improved, but men still have more power and more opportunities than women.

Women are more likely to be victims of rape and abuse than men. And men are more likely to be perpetrators of violence than women.

Ignoring this isn't going to help anyone to raise sons as caring decent men, or daughters as capable women ready to forge their way in the world.