Mothers and travelling away for work

[Portofino]

I used to be the main earner. When DH and I both faced redundancy (we worked for same company) he applied for - and got - an inter company transfer abroad. We moved and I found another job quite quickly. But he had been able to negotiate really good terms so his salary overtook mine. He has also been promoted and has to travel quite a bit. His take home pay is about 1/3 higher than mine - but he has greater responsibility.

I have worked for the same - very family friendly - company for the last 5 years. Dd was 2 when I started and is now 7. It has worked very well - DH has been free to travel and I have had lots of flexibility to work round that, leave earlyish to collect dd and work from home in the evening when necessary and when she is sick etc. As DH is 11 years older and only 11 years from retirement age I have been happy to support this - the more he can earn now the better his pension etc.

Recently though I am aware that my career has stalled a bit and I am bored - so I have been looking out for other opportunities. I now have a 2nd round interview with a HUGE company which I am excited about. BUT - this job would involve at least 2 x 2 weeks trips to the US each year and limited travel - maybe once/twice a month in Europe. There will also be evening telecons which might mean I have to stay late - go back to the office.

I feel SO guilty! I have rarely left dd for any length of time. I have been there to collect her from the after school club forever. I have only ever been away from her for a couple of nights at the most. DH does stuff like this ALL the time - I know he doesn't feel bad about it. We can probably co-ordinate MOST of the time so he would be home - but we can't guarantee this. I would probably have to organise some outside help....

I haven't even got the bloody job yet but I feel so torn! Why is so hard for ME to contemplate 2 weeks in the US when I am jealous of DH when he has gone to NY for the same time....I feel like BAD MOTHER for even thinking about it.

[SardineQueen]

porto yes there are terribly few people who are really really wealthy - interesting prog on the BBC last night

[SardineQueen]

porto here is was very interesting.

BTW my last post was steam of consciousness so happy for it to be picked at!

[Portofino]

Sardine - will have a look at link in the morning (as abroad I have to activate our VPN account to watch UK iPlayer) But there is LOADS of hanging about in office culture. Chatting by the coffee machine, going for lunch, networking things, irrelevant meetings etc etc. I go to SO many meetings that aren't about discussion but more someone presenting information. You don't NEED a meeting for that. Just send the presentation and make yourself available for any questions.

I do honestly believe that MANY men (probably my dh amongst them) use the EXCUSE of long hours in the office to excuse them from doing domestic things. Home too late to help with dinner/baths/bedtimes. Knackered at the weekend so just nip off for a bit of rejuvenating golf/long lie ins etc. I know in my DH's case that he is still in his dressing gown when dd and I leave the house. He works til 7 ish as he needs to speak to people in the US......But not every day he doesn't - and 5 or 6pm would suffice.

I am not doubting that he works hard. I do think that he could manage his time much better if he HAD to.

[Portofino]

And Sardine you are right that family life is seen as unimportant in our (UK) culture - by men, generally. In Belgium I see many men doing school runs and taking parental leave. The boss (who has grown up children) might still be there at 6pm but no other bugger will be. It is not expected. There is traffic and dinner and family.

[Portofino]

I have a colleague who is known for his lack of communication skills (in any language). I used to sit next to him. On a Wednesday, he left the office early and always told me the menu for the planned family dinner that occurred on that night. Carbonade de boeuf, couscous royale, choucroute etc etc. I assumed that he was leaving early to COOK these meals. But no - he had a summons from his MIL!

[Himalaya]

Bonsoir - this is definitely a feminist issue.

School is not childcare (for a start it is only open 2/3 of the year). Therefore for anyone who doesn't have live-in-nanny style childcare (=99% of people) or a SAHP partner -- working and bringing up children committing to drop-offs and pick-ups at particular times, supervising homework, sorting out meals etc...and that means sometimes saying no to late meetings, not being free to travel all the time etc... it doesn't mean you can't be productive at work but it does mean your work style changes when you have children.

80% of people I see in the playground doing the pickups and drop offs are women, and 80% of the people who make it to the top in many professions with a presenteeism culture are men. It is not a coincidence.

I think we should challenge the whole idea of your 'career stalling' being a bad thing. Why shouldn't careers go fast and slow at different times? What is so important about momentum? This idea that 'good' careers are perpetually moving forward at breakneck speed is really damaging to women.

If you take a few years off work, or out of the fast lane when your kids are young and your DH doesn't then it is all to common to get into this mindset where he has the 'first class' unstalled career and yours is the stalled career, which is seen as second (or third or fourth) priority for the family. If the woman's career is stalled why should the man inconvenience his important unstalled career by working more flexibly so that she can travel, start to do late meetings etc...? I think this is the situation Portofino is describing.

I think the logic is all wrong. I think we have to start thinking more in terms of reciprocity between parents. So if one gets a few years to turbo charge their career because of the support of the other, they should also be willing to take a few years of slower career development to let the other one catch up.

There is no reason why a good career has to mean 14 hour days or 30 years of unbroken career rise -- the only reason is because this is the normal pattern for men with SAHM wives to support them domestically.

[Bonsoir]

Portofino - no, he doesn't do the school run every day for DD for the three following reasons (a) I am available to do it (b) DD's school starts 30 minutes later than the DSSs' primary school did, so DP needs to be going in late in order to make it viable (he does do this occasionally) (c) the economy has gone tits up in the last few years and so DP works much longer hours, mostly carved off in the mornings, than he did when the DSSs were little!

[Bonsoir]

Himalaya - none of your points convince me that this a feminist issue and by insisting it is so, I think you focus your energy on the wrong "problems" which prevents you from actually identifying useful solutions. The issue of compatibility of child raising and career is a parental issue; if parents find it distasteful to outsource childcare for long periods while they pursue their jobs (whose hours are not going to become more flexible - on the contrary) they need to think this through rationally and dispassionately rather than women by default "blaming men". That's the knee jerk, thoughtless way of approaching what is a much more complex issue.

[CandyCaner]

Of course it's a feminist issue. How ridiculous to suggest otherwise!

It isn't about 'blaming men'. It is about recognising that this is almost uniquely a problem that women face.

[CandyCaner]

When have you ever heard anyone talking about male senior leaders having to 'juggle' childcare and work.

I rest my case.

[CandyCaner]

Forgot question mark

here you go: ?

[Bonsoir]

Personally, I never hear senior women talking about juggling childcare and work. They have it sorted!

[Himalaya]

Bonsoir - I don't think its about 'blaming men' I think its about thinking about the deal that is struck between mothers and fathers over childcare and careers and the way that structures - of work, education, childcare - and ways of thinking about these things - reinforce those choices so that taking a bit of time off when kids are young can be a one way ticket to career oblivion for so many mothers.

...so that you end up with playgrounds full of mothers doing pick-ups/drop-offs etc... and boardrooms full of fathers who have never had to worry about pick-ups/drop-offs as they climbed the greasy pole to the top.

In Porto's case her DH has been able to pursue his career through international travel, and her work has fitted around that. No one suggested that he needed rent-a-granny or to start swapping childcare favours with other dads in the playground in order to be able to make a business trip.

Yes the compatability of child raising and career is a parental issue, I wholeheartedly agree. But as it disproportionately impacts on mothers, isn't that important?

[CandyCaner]

Well we come form very different worlds, then, Bonsoir.

I am a 'senior woman' and this is a hot topic among my circle. I'm not the CEO of a company - I don't earn millions and I can't afford live-in help - but we do have great childcare sorted, so theoretically there should be no problem. Except there is. I do feel guilty about travelling abroad - and missing out on school plays or play dates or whatever - in a way that my male colleagues just don't.

My line of work is incredibly male dominated, and the vast majority of them have SAHM wives. I have a full-time working husband. My situation is vastly different from there situation, and that makes it a feminist issue. I think it is very important to recognise that fact. It doesnt mean I am incapable of looking at practical ways to improve my situation. It just mans that I realise that my situation isn't unique, and is one shared by many other women.

[CandyCaner]

their situation. Sorry - ill today and struggling to formulate sentences!

[Bonsoir]

Himalaya - the issue that Portofino has raised on this thread (and she has revealed her feelings over several posts) is about her reluctance to leave her DD with anyone else other than her DH while she is travelling for work. I can fully sympathise with her distaste at outsourcing childcare (I find a lot of outsourcing of childcare pretty gruesome) and I made suggestions as to versions of outsourcing that she might find more palatable, though even those didn't make the grade.

The key issue is that the world of work is such that if you want a dual-career couple with the sort of freedom to travel and stay late at work that career progression implies, you cannot expect to do so without outsourcing childcare, at least part of the time. Neither adult will be able to have the flexibility to drop everything to fit around the school timetable. This is an issue for working adults, not just mothers. I grant, however, that the outsourcing of childcare is often (though by no means not always) more distasteful for mothers than fathers.

[SardineQueen]

Bonsoir that's because the senior women can afford to pay someone to act as them in their absence.

For people on lower salaries (even right up until middle management) people use nurseries, childminders and so on. So can't drop off before a certain time, pick up after a certain time, and travel is very difficult. They can't afford the type of childcare that offers as much flexibility as having a SAHP / live-in nanny.

The people normally affected by this are women.

Of course it's a feminist issue.

The government removing various assistance with childcare costs at the moment is meaning that some people are doing some calculations and reluctantly realising that they can no longer afford to work. The people doing this are women. The papers say so, the news channels say so.

Until we have a society which expects both men and women to perform childcare duties, this won't change.

[Bonsoir]

SardineQueen - I am sure that there is an issue of cost of childcare, but there is also an issue (the one Portofino is confronted with) of whether they find childcare to their taste or not. You can be wealthy and more than able to afford it and still find childcare distasteful!

[SardineQueen]

The comment about flying in a grandmother just boggled me I have to say. So even after you have raised your own children and they have long left home, you are supposed to be on hand to fly around and go and live in someone elses house for a week and take on the role of mother. Cooking, cleaning, school runs, uniforms and all the rest of it. Just because you're female? No suggestion that a grandfather might do this, obviously. And TBH I imagine that many grandparents would rather baulk at the suggestion!

[SardineQueen]

You were talking about senior women and saying they never seemed to have childcare issues. I was pointing out that the very wealthy can afford to pay someone to act as a total stand-in for them.

All of the other people using non wraparound childcare have real problems with not being seen as totally committed at work.

None of that has anything to do with people finding childcare "distasteful" (odd choice of word) or otherwise.

[SardineQueen]

A woman I worked with arranged her work around her school run. She had cover from 8 til 6 and an hour commute and sometimes got in after 9 / had to leave before 5. She was successful (management in big multinational). She used to "make up" any lost time at home and worked from home sometimes.

I heard that last year she was told that this was no longer acceptable and in the end she had to take a cut in her hours. This happened in 2010 FGS.

[Bonsoir]

SardineQueen - you are taking isolated posts/side issues out of the context of the thread.

Flying in grandmothers is very common you know! A friend of mine used to work in NY and would travel all over the world for work. Her MIL was happily on standby to fly in from France to help her family out. Another friend of mine travels all over the world regularly and her mother and exMIL both fly in from Germany regularly to help out. My mother regularly flies to the Netherlands to help my sister out.

[Himalaya]

Bonsoir -

You seem to be willfully ignoring the issue here.

It is not about finding childcare distasteful. It is that for most people childcare (after school club, childminder etc...) still means having to get back at a fixed time to pick up and take over childcare. Which means not being 100% flexible at work.

Portofino is already in a two-earner family, she and her DH probably already use some childcare, just not of the live-in variety.

Yet when he goes away on a business trip, he is not expected to start swapping favours with other parents in the playground (and presumably coordinating all of that by skype while he is away) so that she can stay late at work while he is away.

Why is it so obvious that Portofino is faced with a 'childcare' problem to go away on a business trip, but her DH isn't when he goes?

[mendipgirl]

This is interesting.

My situation is I earn double what DH does. I work 4 days a week (middle management), he works 3 days a week 8 months a year and full time 4 months. He says my job is more important and should be the priority...but in practice he hates saying no when his boss wants him to do extra hours, travelling etc. When he is at work he just thinks about work and not the impact of saying yes to things has on childcare. Which inevitably I have to sort out. If I left it to him he would think about it the week before it was needed, whereas I am already thinking about the 4 months next year when we will need to cover 2 extra days and then thinking about the year after when DD1 starts school and how we will cover that.

If we didn't have supporting grandparents close by we would be screwed!! DD1 has just had to start nursery and for months before I went back to work I have been telling DH that on Tuesday he has to do the nursery run and it has to be a priority. He forgot until the week before and then I have already had to leave work early to pick her up 3 times in 5 weeks!!! Doesn't make a great impression at work does it!

He is a great dad...when he is there...he just seems to have an out of sight out of mind mentality!

[mendipgirl]

I agree with Himalaya, whether DH or I have to work late or travel the childcare "problem" inevitably falls to me to sort out!