Is drag sexism?

[ecclesvet]

With Halloween upcoming, I've read some stuff about blackface and dressing up as Native Americans, Mexicans, etc - the general consensus (which I agree with) is that this is racism. So why is drag not (or at least not treated as) sexism?

All the arguments that apply to blackface - that it's an privileged group mocking an underprivileged one; that it's lazy stereotyping; that it has roots in a time when the entertainment industry refused to employ said group - all apply to drag too.

[EllaDee]

I like the idea trills - but it's worlds away from the attitudes of men I've seen doing drag.

I'm aware I've only seen some rather limited contexts, but they're probably quite fmiliar to anyone who's been out on a Friday night near a university - guys going out dressed as women, who are not doing anything more complex than laughing at how funny comedy boobs are and how drunk and daft they can get while dressed as women.

It's usually not done with any intention of doing harm or offense to anyone, and sometimes there's even a (nominal) charitable association. But I do find it quite offensive that it boils down to young men thinking parodying women is really, really funny, and that this is so obvious there's no need to think any more of it.

[nooka]

chibli and Plenty expressed the way I feel much better than I did. I feel ridiculed by the way that some men in drag look and behave. Perhaps because I so very much do not subscribe to the concept of femininity that they are ridiculing/subscribing to. I'm not sure. All I know is that it makes me irritated and angry, and that I particularly dislike it when used for 'comedic' effect.

I've absolutely no problem with someone like Edie Izzard because his plays on gender are about him, they aren't done with a 'look at me, aren't I so funny looking like this - see how I pretend to be like those women, aren't I daring/hilarious' attitude.

[EllaDee]

nooka - yes, that'd slipped my mind reading this thread (which I guess is telling in itself), but I agree Izzard doesn't come across as offensive to me, because he just wears stuff and gets on with what he's doing.

[KRITIQ]

It's not something I've thought much about, but I think I'm pretty much with GothAnne's view. From what I understand, "drag" can mean a wide spectrum of things, so I don't know that it's very helpful to generalise. You can get men wearing traditional male clothing who are misogynist and those who aren't. Gay men who despise women and gay men who love women. Transgender folks who are not sexist and those who are. Women who are anti-women and women who are feminist. I'd guess it's probably just as varied amongst people who cross-dress, drag artists, etc. There are also of course drag kings (otherwise cis women who style as men in an act.)

[EllaDee]

I would like to agree, but to me, that sounds more like what I would hope would be true in an ideal, non-patriarchial world. Obviously there's nothing magic about a skirt and a pair of fake boobs that makes those with XY chromosomes into misogynists, it's not that simple. But for me, it's similar to the way that I see, say, academia. There should not be anything inherently sexist about academia ... but in so many places misogyny is so ingrained in the culture, I can't deny it's there. For me, drag, at least in the context of young men who do it not as part of a performance but as a one-off, social thing, is likewise part of a misogynistic culture.

[TchArghWhooWhooWhootnEekAaargh]

Hmph.
Well am now listening to Mark Gatiss on Desert Island Discs. La Grande Reine du Drague, non?
And I think you'd have to perform some serious, painful and very unnecessary mental acrobatics to view him as a nasty misogynist.
(Perhaps someone on here will manage it yet, though.)

[EllaDee]

I don't see why we need to perform any acrobatics at all to view him as a nasty misogynist - can't we object to drag even if we like some people who do it? Rather like the way I might strongly object to sex work, but I don't spend my fridays rounding up prostitutes and branding the with the letter A?

[EllaDee]

(That's a real question btw, not rhetorical.)

[TchArghWhooWhooWhootnEekAaargh]

You got me there, Ella!
Are you saying that you think Mark's forced into drag-work, or that you think there are some likeable misogynists?

[EllaDee]

I don't know enough about Mark Gatiss to judge him personally.

I just mean, I don't get what the fact that some people who wear drag seem nice has to do with it really? Isn't it a bit like when people discuss prostitution, and someone will always say 'oh, but some prostitutes enjoy it you know, they choose to do it'. It may well be true - but it's not remotely relevant IMO to the question of whether or not prostitution itself is damaging to women.

If we go back to the comparison with blacking up made in the OP - I'm sure people who blacked up in the past for shows, or for that parade thing in Cornwall, may have been perfectly nice people. Some of them may even have been very keen on equal rights and not in the least racist. But all the same, I think we all agree now blacking up just so inextricable from the racist cultures in which it originated, it doesn't seem right. Same here, IMO.

[EllaDee]

Btw, I didn't answer the second half of the question, but yes, I'm sure there are many likeable misogynists. If they all had horns and tails and ate babies for breakfast, we'd never have taken so long working out who's who!

One of the really sad things IMO is when you realize someone you loved, maybe a family member, actually holds views you can't condone, isn't it?

[TchArghWhooWhooWhootnEekAaargh]

OK, Ella. I see what you're saying.
I do think I know enough about Mark Gatiss to be confident that he is not a misogynist.

And I'm assuming that you're also talking about his 'drag' work. Which I love. And don't think is remotely misogynist.

Yes, there are 'likeable' misogynists.
At my great age I'm fairly confident that I can identify misogynist behaviour and views without too much difficulty - although that said, have been thinking about the behaviour of a basically nice, but sometimes strange colleague and I having known him for years I think I've only just realised that he's probably massively underconfident around women and consequently displays some kind of borderline-misogynistic traits.
But I digress.

Yeah, I suppose depending on your relationship with family etc. it might be disappointing to find that you don't share their views (or they don't share yours). Or that they are misogynists. But this is generally part of growing up and can be quite liberating.

[EllaDee]

I just meant I didn't want to say he was or wasn't without knowing personally - didn't mean you needed to assure me you did know!

I wonder if I'd think the same of him as I do of Eddie Izzard - sounds likely, given what you say.

It's funny isn't it how spotting misogynists is something you do genuinely get better at with age? I think for me that was one of the big realizations I had when I was younger - that there really are still misogynists, that feminism isn't something that's been and gone and won all its battles. I think it's a realization a lot of people go through, from what we say chatting about it.

I completely agree about the liberating/positive aspects of realizing someone close to you really does hold views you don't. I think it's human nature that we start off trying to twist our views so we agree with people we love - as you say, it is a big part of growing up to learn how not to do that, and not to feel guilty about that.

I wonder why I'm thinking about drag so much in a context of growing up? Is it something anyone else associates with youngish people? I notice a lot of students seem to do it almost as a rite of passage, part of their 'silly season' before growing up?

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

I dunno, I feel quite differently about drag as Performance (a la Priscilla) from how I feel about the 'men in frocks on a night out' thing (hur hur hur ... got tits ... hur hur hur).

The men on a night out thing is, I think, directly comparable to blacking up. It's the dominant group mocking the physical characteristics of the oppressed group. Proper drag queens originated in gay culture though - it's one oppressed group parodying the trappings of another, and it does seem to be much more about the trappings than the body, so I think it's more complicated.

I don't know really though, I've not thought much about it before and am just trying to analyse my gut feelings. I might just be making excuses like people do for middle class strip clubs burlesque.

[EllaDee]

You said that a lot better than me, plenty, but that was the sort of thing I was getting at.

But I have to say, the 'performance' aspect I feel uncomfortable with isn't just to do with drag - it's the way when I used to go to gay clubs, some of the men would refer to themselves as 'girls' and do sort of parodic-female behaviour - I really feel put down by that and it could be quite a nasty atmosphere to be in. Maybe it was just because we were all very young and silly and not very good at thinking about each other, but I don't like the gay man=girl thing and drag in the context of homosexuality seems to be partly about that, doesn't it?

FWIW, a few friends then (still friends now) found that same equation just as hurtful to them as gay men, if not more so. Just because something originates in a marginalized culture, doesn't mean it's good.

Going for the prize for stating the bloody obvious, I know.

[pollypanties]

guys watch rupauls dragrace its amazing check out a cute ayastrlian courtney act women arent akways in dresses get more guys in heels bt of make up,brings out those cute cheekbones and sexy blue eyes men have better legs for tights

[LordPalmerston]

Are YOU a bloke? You're obsessed with tights. Move on!

[TiggyCBE]

I think some is and some isn't. There is such a wide range of drag it's kind of hard to generalise.