Is drag sexism?

[ecclesvet]

With Halloween upcoming, I've read some stuff about blackface and dressing up as Native Americans, Mexicans, etc - the general consensus (which I agree with) is that this is racism. So why is drag not (or at least not treated as) sexism?

All the arguments that apply to blackface - that it's an privileged group mocking an underprivileged one; that it's lazy stereotyping; that it has roots in a time when the entertainment industry refused to employ said group - all apply to drag too.

[Rational]

Lots of comedy is sexist and awful, this doesn't just apply to drag.

I've been to a couple of shows with male gay friends and my SO, in my opinion most of the humour was directed squarely at the men. Men who had chosen to go to the show knowing full well what they were in for. Let's face it, you don't go to a drag show if you're at all sensitive and if it's sexist at all it may be considered sexist towards men. I just think it's fun, as did the three males I was with.

If you don't like drag, don't go. I hated Bernard Manning, he really was a sexist prick, so I didn't go to any of his shows.

[Rational]

"Know a few drag queens via DD's godfather. As a general rule they are incredibly misogynistic. For some reason performing as a parody of women makes them hate women jeven more than the average bloke.

In contrast, The transexuals I've encountered have, generally, been quite nice people."

Generalising much?

And how much does your average bloke hate women? I must ask my dad, my SO, my male friends and my brothers. They seemed to quite like me

[slug]

Ah Rational, do you not think your basic mysogeny runs deep through UK culture? I fin a lot of gay guys are deeply suspicious of women. They, as much as they can, live and interact in entirely male communities. They don't have to pretend to like women in order to get a shag.

Dd's godfather is one of my oldest and dearest friends, yet when I was out and about with him while pregnant the disparaging comments about 'breeding' from his friends embarrassed him as much as they annoyed me.

[Rational]

Most of my best friends are women, I have some really good male friends but the ones I'm closest to and could tell my deepest secrets to are women.

Gay men may well have best male friends in exactly the same way, their partners are also men, meaning that their circle will be mostly male.

I haven't come across the anti-female scenarios you have, I've got really good gay friends who treat me and all other women with real respect. In fact I find the gay men I know to be less discriminatory than other groups purely because they are extremely discriminated against.

I can only judge on the small group I know though, I don't like generalising based on such a small group.

[WilsonFrickett]

I'm ambivalent about drag. I think when it's done with heart and humour it can be brilliant. When it's not, it isn't. Just like any other form of entertainment, really.

[GothAnneGeddes]

I do think that what we see of drag is probably the tip of the iceberg of drag culture.

I would like to see 'Paris is Burning', as I think it would be an interesting insight: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Is_Burning_%28film%29

I think I generally see drag more as genderplay then female impersonation. Also there is a wide spectrum of drag acts. The torch singing drag Cher (for example) is usually something that's done with a lot of love and sincerity. Slightly off topic, but the likes of Dolly Parton, Shirley Bassey get on the South Bank show now, but 10 or more years ago, it was the drag/ gay fanbase who really appreciated them and took their talent seriously.

[nooka]

I don't like drag very much because it seems to me to be an unpleasant parody of what it means to be female. I've always disliked comedians dressing up as women too, a) because it's not funny and b) why can't they allow real women into their shows? I'm not very keen on women dressing up as men either.

I have no problem with men expressing femininity and women being butch though, I just dislike all the stereotyping crap.

[Rational]

Let me get this right.

You dislike all the stereotyping crap but you think ALL men should dress like men and ALL women should dress like women?

Gender stereotyping much?

[Tchootnika]

I hate men dressing in drag, always have, even as a child I thought it was "wrong" , I never thought of it as a feminist issue until seeing other MN women with the same unease about it as me, I just assumed that I had peculiar issues about it.

Of course there's the potential for drag to include misogyny - just as any artform or expression has this potential.

But drag's capacity to inspire unease doesn't make it 'wrong'. Isn't a main purpose of 'art' to unsettle and 'distance' audiences?

I used to think Grayson Perry was irritating and gimicky - until I saw his work and heard interviews with him. I now think he's brilliant, and I think his cross dressing is quite important in his work.

I also have several occasional cross-dressing friends and a wonderful occasional cross-dresser XP. He started wearing dresses partly for fun, but also, having been brought up in South Asia, he missed the feeling of loose, light, comfortable clothing. The nearest he found in Northern Europe was silk dresses, which he ended up teaming with jewellery and makeup. He looked wonderful, and his dancing was very interestingly affected by this (he's a great dancer whatever he wears, btw).

[chibi]

People seem to be conflating drag with wearing clothing items that traditionally are for the opposite sex

A man in a dress is not necessarily doing drag, neither is a woman in a suit

Drag is not about 'passing' either, or doing a convincing impersonation of a member of the opposite sex, any more than blackface was about white people trying to pass for black

[blinkineck]

I disagree with the comment that gay men are mostly anti-female. The comment about ''breeders' being a mysoginistic statement is wrong imo on the basis that women and men contribute equally to the act of breeding. I also don't agree that gay men have liimited contact with women. Lots of gay men choose to work in jobs, such as hairdressing and fashion, which brings them into contact with a majority female client base. Many gay men also have very strong attatchments to female relatives, usually their mothers but also sisters, aunties, nieces etc. I think it's wrong to label them mysoginist.

[blinkineck]

Haha. It's so early I can't even spell!

[Tchootnika]

chibi - pleasse would you define drag by telling us what it is rather than what it isn't?
This is a genuine request, btw - not a snipe. It would be really helpful to have drag distinguished from cross dressing etc.

[blinkineck]

Drag is a form of cross dressing isn't it? It's distinguishable from transvetitism and a world apart from transexxualism and transgenderism.

[Rational]

I don't think the men who wear drag wear female clothing at any other time though, so I don't reckon it's comparable to cross dressing. Cross dressing usually fulfills an emotional need, drag is costume.

[blinkineck]

It's a form of cross dressing though albeit for entertainment purposes. Tbh by pure coincidence I've been researching this area for something I'm doing at the moment and it's a very complex subject. A lot of how it's defined iis down to the individual. I don't mind admitting that I don't think I'll ever truely know the 'right' answer.

[Tchootnika]

Thank you, Rational!

I remember years ago reading a great book called 'Stages of Desire' which was about men as women in theatre - a very English tradition as women were only allowed to act on stage comparatively recently compared to other European countries.
It also discussed the history of men dressing as women AND blacking up as disguise - for traders' protests, etc.

Would these examples be 'drag'?

[chibi]

this is tricky

i think a key element is performance - this is intended for an audience. there is also exaggeration, and parody - this is the difference between dressing up to look attractive (by whatever standard)/get attention and performing

essentially they are performing a very extreme form of femininity. I personally think women to an extent perform femininity as well, but our motivations are different

women perform femininity so as to escape punishment in a patriarchy (i.e. to fit in). there are real horrors that await the woman who can't or won't conform to gender norms, but it's a continuum- i get mocked for not shaving, you get raped because you look too butch and they want to teach you a lesson. there are gender norms for men as well, but it doesn't seem germane, so i'm not going there. (i will happily chinwag on this on another thread!)

Drag queens on the other hand seem to perform femininity to take the piss out of women. we are not privileged as a class so there is no authentic parody going on here.

I am discomfited by it too- not by drag kings, however; that to me is parody.

A v interesting subject.

[Tchootnika]

I think historically some queens have used drag because it's somehow enabled them to express 'truths' that can't be conveyed 'as men'. I don't think this is misogyny, though.

[blinkineck]

Chibi. Thatks an interesting post. I'm not sure that all drag artists do it to take the piss out of women. I've recently read about several drag artists who had become or were in the process of becoming women. They were not woman haters in the least. Far from it. Other artists were straight men who took their make-up off at the end of the evening and went home to their wives and families. These men had very healthy attitudes towards women as well.

[Rational]

That's a good point tchootnika.

I will maintain though that I think the real victims of drag humour is men though, and they don't appear to mind. I think feminism needs to lighten up somewhat, it can appear petty at times.

Drag queens look like drag queens, not women.

[blinkineck]

Historically some drag artists took huge care to ensure they looked exactly like women. I've never been to Funny Girls or similar but I can guess drag acts are diferent now.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

Chibi, I was thinking a lot along the same lines re: drag as performance and how it may be related to women's performance of femininity. I'm not sure though whether it's a parodying of women or a parodying of the performance of femininity. If the latter, I think it has at least the potential to be a positive thing but I don't know enough about the roots and politics of it to judge whether that's the case.

There is another form of men dressing as women that I think is pure misogyny and that is when you get crowds of usually very blokey blokes dressing up for fancy dress parties and sometimes stag dos. It's done deliberately badly and generally involves 'comedy' breasts, very short skirts, lots of bum-pinching and groping. The message it sends out, to me at least, is that women's bodies and what you (as a man) can do to them is fucking hilarious. It makes me feel really ill to see it.

[Trills]

I've heard it expressed (and I like the idea) that drag is not taking the piss out of women, it is taking the piss out of constructs of femininity.

Drag says "look how ridiculous it is that we expect women to wear these strange things and adorn themselves in this silly way".