Is it sexist to joke about PMT?

[FlamingoBingo]

I thought not - I joke about my own. But I just read a link to a funny 'hormone guide' and when I searched for it on google, someone had referred to it as 'sexist but funny'. Is it really sexist? And if so, why?

[sunshineandbooks]

Before I write this post, I just want to point out that I am most definitely NOT putting all women in the same category here. I'm just musing based on personal experience, so please don't let anyone take offence, especially if they suffer from genuine PMS.

I'm lucky. I don't get PMT. I've come across many women who have suffered from quite bad PMT whose symptoms have disappeared with a significant life change, whether that's diet, lifestyle, divorce or whatever. I've drawn the conclusion that for a lot of (not all) women, PMT is a symptom of a life that isn't quite right for the person living it. It can be due to physical or emotional health. I've met quite a few women whose PMT and depression were kicked at the same time as their X partners...

[FlamingoBingo]

Sunshine - that's interesting. I used to get very depressed on the pill. I'm not about to get rid of my DH, but I do agree that lifestyle factors do come into it. I've just started taking starflower oil and oil of evening primrose, both of which help to regulate hormones.

I'm also not embarrassed about periods, and make a point of talking about them in the same way I talk about most things, but, when I'm not suffering from PMT, I do joke about how vile it sometimes makes me.

I don't think its the same as depression, and I say this as a nearly life-long sufferer of the dreaded Black Dog, simply because it has such a different cause. However, even if it were, why does that make it sexist? Is it really sexist to joke about something that only affects one group of people? Are we only allowed to joke about something that affects everyone equally?

And can I just add this disclaimer: I am arguing this because I am really interested in working it out, not because I think anyone is wrong, and, as many ppl on here will testify, I am a feminist, through and through, but we're all learning all the time, right? And the best way of learning is through intelligent, open-minded discussion.

[WishIwereAtTheWiesnProst]

If only black people suffered from a certain mental disorder (and I believe pmt can be for some women) would you make jokes about it?

[WishIwereAtTheWiesnProst]

Also I don't think health and mental disorders should be laughed at by anyone but the suffers

[booyhoo]

"Isn't that ignorance rather than sexism?"

just like racism, homophobia, disablism etc sexism can be a resultof ignorance.

"and lose my rag far quicker."

even the term "lost her rag" i a reference to a woman being on her period. as in "what's the matter, have you lost your [menstrual] rag? tee hee hee" it dates back to when sanitary wear was pieces of fabric known as your 'rag'

[sunshineandbooks]

I might be prepared to find a joke about PMT funny if it didn't undermine women. I haven't yet found a PMT joke that does that, however. I don't tend to find jokes about disabled people or black people funny for the same reason. It's not the joke being about one group of people that's the problem; the problem is that the joke are undermining, dismissive, subtly aggressive, rude and quite often not remotely funny.

No doubt someone will make the old 'joke' that feminists are completely humourless at this point, but most of us have a strongly developed sense of humour - we just don't find jokes at others expense to be particularly funny. Something that is genuinely funny doesn't need to be rude/hurtful/dismissive.

I'm not sure the causes of depression/PMT are well enough understood for them to be considered entirely different/similar at all TBH. There are multiple types of depression, for example, and very many of them are directly due to someone awry in a person's life rather than a chemical imbalance in the brain. Stress is a well-known cause of aggravation for physical problems, so it stands to reason that the same underlying reason for a woman being depressed (assuming it's not full-blown clinical depression) could well be a factor involved in making her PMT 10x worse.

[booyhoo]

agree totally with sunshineandbooks.

[MangoMonster]

I don't know, I think most people say it as they think it is humorous rather than true or offensive. It would annoy me if someone made a comment in a professional setting, in fact I wouldn't stand for it but in a social setting I think most people see it as a joke rather than anything serious.

[FlamingoBingo]

Sunshine - my depression and my PMT are entirely different.

[Catitainahatita]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, FB and suggest that the difference between you laughing at you for a certain problem you have; or you joking with your DH/friends etc about you is not sexist. It's just you and your friends alaughing about you.

The sexism arises, imho, when instead of being "person" specific (ie you), it become a joke about "women in general". This then plays into the idea already mentioned here about women being slaves to their hormones and being unreasonable. And then we are into clear sexist territory.

To me this idea of their being things that all women have (aside from the purely biological chromozone similarity) is just daft. No trait or characteristic I know of is shared by all women or all men exclusively. We are all just people with individual phoibles independent of gender. So, some women get PMT others don't; some men get erectile disfunction other don't. Just being a man or a woman doesn't make you automatically have either (even though only a man can get one and a woman get the other iyswim); either condition is not a necessary part of "femaleness" or "maleness".

Sorry gone into rant mode. Not called for.

[sunshineandbooks]

FLamingo - I'm sure it is. I wouldn't know. I can't speak for you anymore than you can speak for anyone else. I hope both improve for you though. Depression is horrible and anyone who suffers with it has my sympathy.

Mango - I think you've hit an important nail there. Why do so many of us accept things in our personal/social lives that we would consider outrageously rude in our working lives? Partly it's because of personal relationships of course, but I think it's also because we know 'Brian' isn't a sexist twat and therefore that PMT joke he made couldn't possibly be meant to be offensive, so we laugh it off. I think this is why sexism is so hard to eradicate - it's become so entrenched in society that people fail to see the offence any more, but meanwhile it continues to subtly make its point that women are somehow 'lesser'. (I hope that makes sense.)

[AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen]

I don't really get how PMT can be funny. I am sometimes grouchy before my period, but that's because I get really tired. I also sometimes get grouchy when I am tired after a late night or I have a migraine or I've a hard day at work. I do sometimes chuckle at myself after the event because my internal thought processes are somewhat Victor Meldrew, but I don't really act out, so it's not something for sharing, particularly.

I dislike the "I'm hormonal" justification anyway, Isn't it nearly always a case of having a lower tolerance for bullshit? Which is why it is disparaged, so as to cast the responsibility on the woman, not on the bullshitter.I don't see much funny about that. I do see that it is yet another way to put women in their box. And yes, other women can do that too.

[FlamingoBingo]

@Catita - yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head for me with that explanation.

@AyeBelieve - I'm not sure that's right, though. Yes, certainly in some situations it is, but I know that I, and other women, can become very unreasonable and irrational when they are suffering with PMT. I do feel sorry for my incredible DH who doesn't tell me to stop being such a rat-bag when he knows that I'm feeling particularly sensitive because my period is due. He is very kind to me. I don't think I would be so kind to him if he was so rude to me once a month!

Afterwards, we can joke about it, and I do things to be kind to myself when I get like that - I choose not to do big grand activities, and I allow myself to retreat a little, red tent style (ish!). And I try to ignore how unkind I feel about my DH when I'm living in that red mist.

In my situation, it is most certainly not my husband's fault.

[AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen]

FB, yes, I did have a little rethink after my post. I just don't know how to phrase what I want to say - got my period, you see, and I'm tired and fuzzy headed. That's not irrational, though, nor is my relative lack of patience. There's a perfectly good explanation and doesn't need to be dismissed with a "time of the month" quip. None of it is a joke, is it?

I'll re-visit the thread in a few days and maybe I'll be able to express myself better.

[FlamingoBingo]

Hahahaha, Ayebelieve. Sorry to laugh - how ironic!

It's not a joke if it upsets someone...but it's fine if it makes them laugh...?

I can't take a joke when I have PMT, but most of the month I can laugh about it - kind of takes the edge of how vile it is...?

[LeggyBlondeNE]

AyeBelieve - I did as a younger lass know some women who used "I'm hormonal" as a get out of jail card for being rude and unpleasant to everyone, even people being perfectly nice and reasonable. At the time I had very little patience with that, partly because I don't get PMT so couldn't believe it could really be that bad, and partly because I thought even if it was that bad one should still make an effort and apologise properly afterwards not write it off as 'you have to tolerate me being unpleasant because it's not my fault'.

In contrast I got (and still sometimes get) horrendous period pain which left me pale, clammy and shaking and I wasn't irritable so much as curled up in the corner/on the loo not making trouble for anyone! I suppose that gave me an advantage in all this because I was obviously 'ill'.

These days I'm more understanding as my blood sugar levels can have a similar affect on my mood as my friends' hormones apparently did, and I do know some women who actually bipolar symptoms premenstrually. But all that leads me to believe that one can be irrational with PMT even if not everyone is.

But that still doesn't make it okay for people to treat it as a reverse get-out-of-jail card, as some people (usually men) do by assuming that any outburts/anger/etc is just down to hormones and not them.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

I have a looong history of depression and also got moderate PMT each month until the perimenopause. I always found those few days a month really helpful because I'd stop internalising everything and start sorting out the shit I was too cowardly to deal with most of the time.

I used to occasionally joke that I kept a list of People Who Need Shouting At Anyway, usually said in response to an 'ooh, time of the month, is it dear?' type comment. A bit like, 'yes I'm premenstrual but in a few days I won't be - you, however, will still be an arsehole.'

I'd never joke about anybody else's symptoms though.

[WoTmania]

It spills over into day to day life as well. This idea that women are just slightly hysterical and neurotic most of the time due to hormones where as men are not.
I also suffer from depression, I have done since preteens on and off. I never got formally diagnosed though until last year as it was always dismissed by my family (very male heavy) as WoT being 'sensitive' or 'she's just a bit like that' and I never felt I wanted to bother a Dr in case they said the same thing.
I think my Dad also suffers from depression - he's very like me - but he also has never gone to a Dr about it I reckon cos he's a man and feels as such he shouldn't feel that way as if it's something only women suffer from.