Last night's Doctor Who

[MsWeatherwax]

Anyone else resent the "Amy Williams" bit? There seemed a lot of underlying sexism about it. I know there was a thread on here somewhere about Doctor Who but I've lost where :(

[MsWeatherwax]

Oooh this is totally mind-bending! Loops! I do like all the puzzles and speculations of it all. Interesting point about it being to make her angry with him.

[MsWeatherwax]

Oh and I LOVED Rita. So sad that she was only for one episode.

[rosy71]

Yes, I've just checked the ending and the house and car are new. I wonder how they knew where they were as it can't be Leadworth.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

AlmaMartyrSun 18-Sep-11 15:24:33
"I was a bit taken aback by that as well. I was unhappy with the light jokey references to DV as well - when Rory talks about her taking her shoes off to hit her and when he's lying on the floor asking if it was Amy that knocked him over."

Not sure if it is a typo in the above quote.

But Rory talks about Amy sitting down and unlacing shoes to hit him. Not him hitting her.

[garlicnutty]

... that's OK then

[BoneyBackJefferson]

not ok but it explains why rory asks if amy hit him later in the ep.

[garlicnutty]

I don't remember that - were they joking? Don't tell me Amy's a husband-beater, I'll be devastated!!

[AlmaMartyr]

BoneyBack - yes that was a typo, sorry. I was just a bit about the jokey references to Amy hitting Rory. Never seen or heard a reference to him hitting her. It made me flinch, particularly the second reference (when he's on the floor).

[CrackerFactory]

Someone help me explain to my dh why it is shit that the dr called her williams because he doesn't get why this is an issue.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Cracker - because she's been 'pond' after her marriage all the way through, and they made a big point of it around melody's birth (she's 'river song' because it's a translation of 'melody pond'). It is possible this is all a cunning ruse and deliberate use of 'williams' to show we're somewhere else in the timestream. But to me it just seemed like crappy writing.

Back in the day, a woman took a man's last names to symbolize that she had ceased to be part of her dad's family (and his property with his label on), and had become her husband's property, with his label on. Obviously, lots of women still take their husband's names for reasons that aren't so clear-cut, because it's become fairly normal in our society. But:

1. Amy has elsewhere said quite clearly she doesn't like Williams and prefers Pond (for Melody/River).
   
   
2. The Dr uses 'Williams' when he's saying she has to grow up and stop being an adoring child in her relationship with him. He's telling her to sever her relationship with him, and to symbolize that he gives her her husband's name, as if passing her into Rory's care and as if (for Amy) being married is how she becomes 'grown up'.
   
   When you think about it, it is pretty rude that marriage is seen as a way of recognizing Amy as a proper grown up.
   
   I have ishoos with this because my dad, when I got married last year, told me very firmly that he saw it as me becoming properly adult. I told him how offensive I found that (ffs, I'm older than my DH and have earned my own living and had my own home for years ... what is it about me marrying Dh that makes me grown up?), but he didn't get it.

[EdithWeston]

I don't think it's shit, because I think the inherent insult is necessary to the plot. He is deliberately provoking a reaction against himself (necessary to both save Amy, and humanely end the minotaur's misery), and he is rejecting her and her name as part of that. It was a final and deliberate insult.

He didn't use either surname when bidding them farewell at the (new?) house. It does not signal a name change, or a need to "grow up" in a wider sense. But at the very moment it was said, he was speaking to an Amy whose thoughts had been (partly) invaded by the young girl Amelia (also sort of present at the time) and it was as part of breaking her faith that the raggedy Doctor would return.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Hmm. It's not that I don't see what you're saying edith ... I just don't like it despite that. I was really chuffed they used 'Pond' and I thought they it was a nice statement (as they've made statements in the past about social issues). To say now that the doctor put on a bit of misogyny to piss Amy off isn't very satisfying - if they'd thought about it, they'd realize a lot of people would think of it as symbolic of her growing up, which I think you can't not do. It may have been him annoying her as well, but it was certainly him saying she needed to be grown up Mrs Williams, too.

Dunno ... maybe I am over sensitive but I wasn't thrilled with the ep as a whole so am a bit judgy.

[TrillianAstra]

I have liked very much how Rory has become a real person in this series.

Didn't like the jokey reference to Amy hitting Rory - it's not OK to hit your spouse.

[Ria28]

I'm pretty sure calling Amy 'Williams' was purely about making her lose faith in the Doctor so that the minotaur wouldn't kill her. There have been references to 'Pond' being a superhero name, so I think the point was 'stop thinking travelling me is an adventure, be normal', and maybe also deliberately denying part of her personality, to make her even more angry and less inspired by him. I felt it was the Doctor saying whatever he could to stop Amy dying, not what he actually felt.

[BertieBotts]

The thing you have to bear in mind with the current run is that the head writer, Steven Moffat, is pretty well-known as holding sexist views.

I do think that the "Amy Williams" thing was more about him making her angry/metaphorically about her giving up the "fairytale" life for the "real" life, but I don't know whether they needed to use the name for it and it did bug me a bit as that's twice now that the doctor has decided which name she should have and it seems like she's not had ownership of it herself. But generally I think there have been other more problematic points from a feminist point of view, the "Plus, she's a woman" line in Let's Kill Hitler, the "permission to hug?" thing and a couple of others which I can't remember offhand.

This site is great if you're a fan, the discussion in the comments often turns to feminism. And the one time I saw anyone post a rape joke it was very quickly deleted.

[ecclesvet]

"Steven Moffat, is pretty well-known as holding sexist views"

Really? :(

Is there a source for that?

Didn't the Doctor call Rory 'Rory Pond' though?

[BertieBotts]

Just stuff I've read on various discussion forums. I couldn't find all of the places I've encountered discussion of the issue, but this is the main article which is usually quoted. It is really old though. These are the two quotes:

"There?s this issue you?re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That?s the truth. We don?t, as little boys, play at being married - we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands."

and

?Well, the world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level - except if you live in a civilised country and you?re sort of educated and middle-class, because then you?re almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There?s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male.?

Also this on the casting of Karen Gillan: doctorwho.livejournal.com/5814581.html

[BertieBotts]

Moffat has said on twitter that he doesn't understand why women still take men's names on marriage, and his own wife hasn't. Which is one of the reasons why I'm not reading massively into the name thing.

[AlmaMartyr]

Thanks for that link Bertie. I hadn't heard any of those quotes before and found it quite an interesting read.

[ecclesvet]

Oh bugger, and I thought he seemed cool. Hopefully he's just parroting stuff he's been told is 'just common sense', and hasn't actually sat down, thought about it, and come up with these conclusions on his own.

Can't say I'm particularly surprised that an actress was cast based partly on her looks, though.

[BertieBotts]

Just found this too.

[EdithWeston]

I've just watched tonight's episode - he's calling her Pond again.

So Williams definitely a one-off, which fitted and supported the plot.