Abortion counselling to be offered 'independently' thanks to Nadine Dorries

[VictorGollancz]

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/28/anti-abortion-lobby-reforms

So the door is now officially open for pro-life Christian groups to 'counsel' women, and it is tantamount to forcing women to wait before they can undergo a LEGAL medical procedure. I'm so angry I'm not sure I can string together a coherent sentence. This is a warning, a very big warning, that we must never think for one moment that our reproductive rights are assured.

From that article:

Dorries said she did not know how the Right to Know campaign was being funded, claiming that it represented "hundreds" of people and was run by a lobbyist. She would not reveal the lobbyist's name, or the other organisations the lobbyist represents but did say that she was receiving advice from Dr Peter Saunders, the head of the Christian Medical Fellowship.

Saunders led the Alive and Kicking campaign, a group of anti-abortion groups including the ProLife Alliance, which campaigned for an immediate cut in the abortion time limit, prohibition of abortion for "social convenience" and a cooling-off period.



Even the most cursory google reveals Dorries to be an out-and-out liar. If this campaign was based on facts, that would be one thing - but the fact that this woman has twisted every piece of information she can get her hands on in order to push this through Parliament makes it a disgrace. I'm so, so angry about this.

[louie74]

My initial reaction was one of horror too but having reflected on my own experiences, I do think that some form of independent counselling should be mandatory. Not one health care professional assumed that I would want to do anything but proceed with a termination. Young, unmarried, skint etc etc.....every single person I spoke with assumed that in those circumstances a termination was not only the right decision, it was the responsible decision. Utter bullshit. Any mandatory advisory service should be impartial, independent. Abortion isn't a right - it's a crappy necessary solution to an overwhelming problem that women are entitled to be fully informed about and supported through.

[VictorGollancz]

Celadon, I'm sorry for your experience, but saying that BPAS made money out of you is like saying that your dentist would give you a root canal you neither want nor need because the NHS will pay him for the treatment. They don't 'make money' like that.

Louie, I don't agree that independent counselling should be mandatory, because it's another hurdle to jump through and it presupposes that abortion is an inherently traumatic experience that will leave all women with some form of mental damage. And that's simply not true. Please read the links CriKri posted about the 'mystery shopper' - the groups that will be offering 'counselling' have told women that they will have to dispose of remains. What cruel, callous behaviour.

[theothersparticus]

I don't belive that any organisation, whether pro- or anti-choice, can provide 'independant counselling, but I agree with VictorGollancz and CRIKRI that this adds another hurdle to a procedure that can already take far too long.

Two years ago, in order to obtain an abortion, I asked my GP to refer me to BPAS and he refused on religious grounds, although he did tell me to go to my local sexual health clinic (3 days to get GP appointment) The local SH Clinic is open once a week for half the day, if you don't show up in time to get a number, you don't get seen (5 days waiting for clinic) then I was able to call the BPAS helpline to book an apointment for consultation (4 days) where I was asked at least 3 times if i had any questions or needed any more information and then was booked in for the procedure in Liverpool, 2 hours away from my home, (another 4 days waiting) In all I had to wait just over 2 weeks to get anywhere, I would imagine that you could add another week to that if I had to have counselling, if you wanted to have a non-surgical termination those extra weeks could mean that you miss that window.

I'm sorry you had a bad time Celadon, but BPAS are not there to 'make money' If you had decided to walk out, they would have been just as supportive (source: seeing a girl in the waiting room with me changing her mind and watching the nurse/doctor giving her a hug and wishing her well)

As much as Nadine Dorries et al would like to paint BPAS, Marie Stopes, etc as baby-hating monsters determined to stop reproduction they're just people trying to help women through what can be a very scary time, at every point you're given the option to back out. Daft as it sounds, prehaps the counselling could take place with your consultation for abortion, you could be offered the choice to talk to a someone not affiliated with BPAS at the same time to lessen the waiting time.

[VictorGollancz]

Celadon, I don't want to push this and I am mindful of your very negative experience, but I don't think it's 'naive' to assume that the British Pregnancy Advisory Service is NOT systematically witholding counselling from women in order to claim back the cost of the procedure from the NHS. Pro-life organisations would be having a field day if there was one shred of evidence that this were true. Look at the capital they have made out of simply repeating it, over and over again, with no evidence.

I agree with theotherspartacus that 'independent' counselling sounds pretty impossible. What would that counselling achieve? That's a genuine (and open) question, btw. No counsellor can tell you what to do, it's a woman's choice alone; they could tell you that studies have shown that there is no mental trauma automatically brought about by termination - but then that wouldn't be true for all women. Equally, telling women that they should prepare for grief would be untrue for another group of women.

Of course women want counselling through what is a traumatic experience for some of them - I think it's callous of Dorries and her ilk to capitalise on this desire and portray it as non-existent. I also think her standard of 'independent' is a joke. Their aim is fewer abortions, not happier ones.

No counsellor can make a woman feel ok about an abortion she is having if she herself regrets it. Equally, no counsellor has the power to make it suddenly possible to continue with a pregnancy - they can't guarantee stable relationships, a steady income, etc.

[louie74]

Maybe we're approaching this from very different starting points. The actual process has plenty of time within it (for most women) to build counselling in to it. I absolutely agree that that counselling should only be provided by impartial organisations and not by any group with financial motive, religion doctrine or otherwise. Hence my call for impartial.

What would it achieve ? Perhaps I would have had the opportunity to stop the process that I was coerced into and would have had my baby. I really don't know but there has to be a point where it's okay to say stop and not just as a result of a panic on the day itself which results in 'oops, bit late dearie, never mind, there'll be other babies'. Let's not forget that for many women, no matter how confident of their decision, it's still a pretty horrible experience emotionally. For those of who are certain, a short counselling session won't hurt - if it's impartial and with the needs of the woman foremost. We all know women who have a termination and don't give it a second thought, others who use it as a means of contraception and some who find it damn difficult to live with but a necessary evil. Providing support in making that decision and information on the alternatives is needed by all.

[VictorGollancz]

The only form of counselling that would be truly independent would be a private counsellor that may well be engaged after the event in order to talk over the concrete feelings that have arisen as a result of a termination. I've been turning this over in my mind and I just can't think of a way in which a woman could be made to feel better about her choice if that choice has been made due to factors external to the woman and the counsellor.

Louie, there is counselling built into the system, isn't there? I was certainly offered the chance, both prior to and after the procedure. I didn't take it up so I don't know who supplied this service. I was certainly asked if I was sure - I was certainly told I could go away and think it over.

In any case, I'm cetainly not arguing about the provision of counselling - what I detest is Nadine Dorries's claim that she can replace BPAS and Marie Stopes with a more impartial body that is going to turn out to be pro-life groups filled with misinformation, propaganda, and lies.

BPAS has got to be better than that. I can't think of a body that could be considered truly 'independent' in this matter, even a GP - any service that becomes involved in women's pregnancy is going to be invested one way or the other. Counsellors have to be paid.

[VictorGollancz]

Sorry, UsingMainlySpoons, was that me not being clear? I was thinking along the lines of a woman who wants counselling.

On a lot of these threads I see a lot of women who are reassured by finding out that they're not the only ones to have terminated under their particular circumstances. This is obviously good, but I don't think that can happen in a counselling space - wanting a counsellor to say 'yes, your reasons are 'good' reasons' (which plenty of women want and need) is so open to abuse and/or accusations of 'encouragement' when placed in a counselling context.

[VictorGollancz]

You sound as though you speak from experience - I don't at all, so thanks. I think you're right that if what women need to hear is 'your decision is respected and valid' (and I think that we all need to hear that) then this shouldn't be conflated with 'counselling'. Equally I struggle to see how a counsellor is going to help anyone make sure that 'this is what I really want' - a counsellor isn't going to be able to do that.

I think the only thing that will make some women feel any better about terminations is a societal-wide acceptance that terminating a pregnancy is an entirely acceptable response to any number of circumstances, up to and including not wanting a child. Society needs to say that, loud and clear, not individual counsellors. We're not going to get any closer to that with Nadine ' Dorries and her cohort of anti-choice concern trolls.

[Treats]

It's the language isn't it? The newspaper report I read said that the aim was to 'prevent' abortions. When and why has abortion prevention become government policy?

[forkful]

BootyMum "I cannot understand why you are so against BACP backing pre-abortion counselling? From what I read in the link the counselling would be offered not mandatory?"

I find it deeply deeply ironic that Nadine et al (in the Right to Know) campaign set so much store by the fact that counselling is currently provided by the abortion providers themselves who have a financial interest in an abortion proceeding (*).

And then BACP come out and say they support the idea - and of course it is BACP counsellors who would be paid by the NHS to provide this service! To then use the fact that BACP are in agreement as some sort of influencer is very cunning.

The other thing is that these anti-abortion charities do contain BACP members - so that is no safguard against the issues highlighted in the "mystery shopper" exercise.

I am really pissed of at this consumerist model which is being applied to abortion providers. They are not commercial organisations with shareholders. They re-distribute resources to cover costs and provide services.

If there was a decrease in the number of abortions BPAS would adjust its service accordingly. They also provide online STI testing, online treatment and advice for erectile dysfunction.

Common sense says that the rate of abortion will NEVER be zero and in times and countries where it is illegal then of course illegal unsafe abortions do take place.

The role of abortion counselling should not be to "talk you out of it".

I do not wish to deny the reality of any woman who feels that they did receive inadequate counselling. This is indeed a concern and could and should be researched in a similar "mystery shopper" survey.

If independent counselling could be provided on demand practically immediately by organisations/individuals which we could be certain were not anti-abortion then that might be of use for some women.

Personally I think that abortion should be available ON DEMAND everyday (including weekends) with no delay whatsoever. For me as a feminist woman this should be my basic human right. No delay fo GP appointments, 2 GPs, faffing around for a clinic appointment.

We have the right to free contraception ON DEMAND and no one suggests we have counselling "in case we might want a baby". .

I think that society conspires to make abortion more traumatic that it should be by introducing an unecessary emotional component. Earlier abortions are surely much less stressful and much more similar to early miscarriages.

I used to think "oh I am pro-choice but I don't think I could have an abortion myself" - we see that all the time on MN as a view.

I personally believe that my old view was due to never having thought this through in a feminist way. Now I'd think "I don't want another DC. I am using contraception to prevent another DC. Therefore a contaception failure would equal for me a guilt free abortion".

[garlicnutter]

Did you see the 'undercover' review in today's (Tuesday's) Daily Mail?

I thought it was pretty good and fairly researched.

"The issue is due to come before Parliament this week, when Tory backbencher Nadine Dorries will ask for the biggest shake-up of abortion laws for 20 years. Under the proposed changes, abortion clinics will be told to offer free access to independent counselling run on separate premises by a group which does not carry out abortions.

I posed as a terrified pregnant young woman unsure of what to do, and sought counselling.

What happened next left me confused and traumatised ? and I?m not even pregnant. I discovered that vulnerable women are being given advice that is both biased and manipulative ? and could easily make them feel pressured into making a decision they will regret later."

The reporter, Jenny Stocks, made six counselling appointments. The only one she felt offered unbiased, honest and helpful advice was Choices, which is a church-affiliated service. Of course, her experience will have been affected by the individual counsellors she saw - but five duds out of six is a pretty damning outcome.

Shocking that women are being manipulated to suit agendas, at one of the most crucial and vulnerable points in their life. Though not surprising.

[sunshineandbooks]

i wonder how Nadine Dorries would feel if someone told her that she should stop pontificating on social policy and get back to the kitchen where she belongs.

Because it seems that this is where she feels women should be.

She is against abortion, seems to think girls only should bear responsibility for teenage sex, doesn't like sex beyond the confines of a stable long-term relationship, and doesn't like either single mothers or same-sex parents.

What exactly does she think is going to happen if the only contraception freely given to girls is the message 'just say no'. Any glance at other western societies where this has been tried will show her that it doesn't work. Therefore we are going to have a rise in unwanted pregnancies. Strongly discourage abortion and you're going to have a lot more single parents and children born to mothers who cannot cope. How on earth is that going to help the 'moral fabric' of society?

She may not see herself as one but Nadine Dorries is a misogynist.

How about targetting boys to say no?
How about encouraging contraception to avoid situations where abortions are needed in the first place?
How about enforcing maintenance payments so that unplanned pregnancies can be better financially supported?

100 things she could do to decrease the demand for abortion (without pressurising women) but she has chosen to lay all responsibility on women and that IS misogynistic.

[garlicnutter]

I can never make up my mind whether these twerps in Westminster are malicious or just breathtakingly ignorant. While I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle - if you can call egotistical power-hunger a middle ground - you've made me think of another item for the Women's Manifesto.

A wholly feminist research group to have significant input into every policy document, with the specific remit of correcting biases and errors that may harm women's freedoms or entitlements.

[HandDivedScallopsrgreat]

"I think that society conspires to make abortion more traumatic that it should be by introducing an unecessary emotional component."

Agree with that forkful.

I've said this before in these discussions, but before the victorians there was no stigma attached to having abortions (although I would imagine that they were far more dangerous than they are now). The stigma was brought in by the victorians and is still here now.

I've e-mailed my MP - haven't heard anything back yet (although she is notorious for delayed responses) but I am hoping she is against this - from what I know of her.

[GrannyV]

Hope I can join in - I'm still a mum although I started a long time ago! I also have written to my MP about this as I think it could set back women's rights by a generation. Just over 40 years ago contraceptive advice was only available to married women and abortion was illegal. This was a serious threat to women's health and limited their ability to be socially, sexually and economically independent. I'm not going to be pregnant ever again but I have daughters and grandaughters who may be. I'll fight to the end to keep them safe.

[NotQuiteSoDesperate]

U-turn from the government:

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/31/downing-street-uturn-abortion-proposals

[garlicnutter]

Hurrah!!!! Good news, thanks :)