Religion is Patriarchal

[AyeRobot]

Innit?

I am struggling to come up with reasons why it isn't. Can you help?

[MrsTwinks]

It can be very hard to differentiate from the outside what is the faith and what is the culture. Islam for example, I don't claim to be an expert but things like the burka and (as I understand it) the more mad ideas on female "modesty" are cultural not religious. I think it's easy to confuse what comes from where as culture is often intertwined with the dominant religion of the area

[MillyR]

You can't really have faith outside of a culture though, can you? It only exists because of culture. I don't think the two can be separated.

[MrsTwinks]

Excuse me but my dh is currently training as a local preacher and often talks to me of the covenant between Methodism, baptists and c of e. They aren't the same but they are connected by this and the same root of Protestantism. I go to church, you are professed lapsed. I might get terms wrong and go for the colloquial, and I never proclaim to be an expert only to speak on my personal knowledge, but I am not full of shit as you seem to want to claim.

[MillyR]

The Anglican church defines itself as both Catholic and Reformed, so it has as much connection to the Catholic church as to some of the protestant churches. The Baptist church doesn't have the seven sacraments, and that is pretty central to the Anglican church.

[sunshineandbooks]

Isn't religion a cultural mechanism? By that I mean haven't nearly all traditional organised religions evolved as a means of cementing existing cultures? And given that most traditional cultures are patriarchal doesn't that make all traditional organised religions patriarchal?

I think one of the reasons Christianity is embracing female ordination is because it is slowly realising that it will have to do so in order to survive. Its more about recruitment and retainment in a modern more-gender-equal age than it is about any real desire to overthrow sexism.

I will happily admit that this is just my opinion and I have no real evidence - empirical or anecodotal - to support this.

[sunshineandbooks]

Anyone who can make sense of my last post must have some connection to god! I know what I mean even though I don't seem to be able to explain it at all...

[MillyR]

I don't know. The Anglican church is losing a lot of its followers to the Catholic church over the issue of female bishops. The Catholic church has made it very easy for the followers and the priests to move over.

I think the Anglican church has pretty much served its purpose and slowly wind down over the next hundred years.

[AyeRobot]

Where do women fit in Christianity?

And in Islam?

In Hindhuism?

In Buddhism?

Anyone know? Am googling as we speak. Am not relying on all of you.

Am just puzzled as to why there is a dearth of women leaders. It's not the childbirth thing again, is it? That small section out of a women's life where she needs to tend to need other than that of her own that renders her useless in the eyes of lots of men before or after the event.

Massive fan of Pema Chodrun, btw. I bet she has had a more interesting, fulfilling, compassionate and knowledgable life than the Dalai Lama.

[MrsTwinks]

Sunshineandbooks I think you have it right on, if flipped. Religions have often ingratiated themselves with the culture as a way of coaxing the people into following. Christmas being put at the celebration in the pagan calendar that closest matches is the prime example.

[MrsTwinks]

Ayerobot, I guess that depends on which of the dalai lamas lives you mean jokes aside he's actually an interesting character, he's born chinese and his sister is one of the few female lamas and at one time his mother held the record for the birthing most reincarnated lamas. She was revered because of it in what I read

[MillyR]

But religions have to come from a culture as well as moving into new cultures. They don't just spring from nowhere. They arise within a cultural context.

[MrsTwinks]

The culture it arose from IMO is the context to the message, the good Samaritan makes little Mark until it's explained what being a Samaritan meant then. But I think it takes a proper student of theology to unravel it fully. Tbh I made the op on the subject to circumvent anyone trying to link the burka as a reason Islam was anti-woman cos that argument could get ugly. It's not a part of the religion at all it's more cultural

[AyeRobot]

As I asked, any reasons why it isn't?

Come on, it can't be that difficult, can it?

[MrsTwinks]

Depends on the religion. I think the ones with a large pantethon of gods aren't, they tend IMO to represent male and female equally, so we mean the abrahamic ones right?? Judaism, Islam and Christianity

IMO Judaism isn't. The line of the chosen people is maternal. If only your father is Jewish some orthodox apparently won't accept you as a Jew.

Alot of it is dominated by the child rearing thing, but ignoring the old testament in regarding Christianity, there is nothing I have ever come across in the teachings of Jesus that has any gender bias on either foot. Very much all men are equal vibe there.

No idea on Islam other than the covering up thing is all on modesty, and apparently some take this so strict that photographs (men and women) aren't allowed under the same scripture

[MillyR]

Okay, I will say that the entire concept that there is some kind of entity that created the world is itself patriarchal. It gets double patriarchy points if the entity is male.

I have created life. I have taken something from a couple of cells and made a life out of it. Making up that this other being exists and then making out that they are actually the thing that makes life and that I am a mere vessel of this supernatural force reduces what it means to have female reproductive potential. It also reduces my right to argue that I should have control of my body, because my body has been reduced to vessel.


The whole of religion and the creator of the world thing is like 2 kids:

Kid 1: I scored a goal!
Kid 2: Well my dad is George Best and your goal is thus worthless.
Kid 1: I think you just made that George Best thing up.
Kid 2: You have hurt my feelings. Say that again and I will kill you.

So the only religions that are not patriarchal are the ones that teach that God (by whatever name) did not make the world.

[AyeRobot]

"all men are equal"

That was a joke, right?

So Judaism isn't and they ignore the New Testament and focus on the Old. But Christianity isn't if we ignore the Old Testament.

I'm confused.

[MrsTwinks]

I meant it in the george Orwell sense.. All animals are equal. Sorry humor doesn't translate.

It's where you draw the line. Judaism does follow and put huge emphasis on the female line in determining if you are a Jew, but Alot of the old testament is a bit misogynistic (arranged marriages, original sin etc)

Christianity doesn't have that matriarchal line thing, but it does have the teachings that don't talk at all of women as anything other than equal to men, with everyone having equal worth.

[MillyR]

I think there probably is some truth that it would take a theology student to unravel the patriarchal culture from some faith element that may or may not be culture free, and when we do get out the faith element may or may not be patriarchal.

So it is kind of easier to say, I'm just not going to bother attempting to unwrap the hundreds of layers of patriarchy on the off chance there may be something worthwhile in the middle. It is easier just to get on with my life.

[AyeRobot]

You drew the line. You discounted the Old Testament in terms of Judaism because you knew it would contradict claims for Christianity's unpatriachalness.

Is there any such thing as Christianity without the Old Testament?

[MrsTwinks]

In my own day to day experience, other than Adam and eve, Noah and those tales we are taught (or at least I was) in school the old testament doesn't "pop up" I think the propheses of Elijah was the only old testament I've ever known dh to use in sermons.

In my experience of the more moderate church see it as Christian history or mythology iykwim. For example another preacher dh knows doesn't preach/teach on angels as he doesn't believe that part is anything more than mythology.

[MrsTwinks]

When I said " where you draw the line" i was referring to personal choice. Christianity follows the teachings of Christ, it's possible to follow them without the "context" of the old testament in my experience. In some places they contradict each other so you have to. You can be a Christian and ignore it, or you can embrace it. The only set thing in a denomination is the message Christ left, and even that's interpreted differently

[MrsTwinks]

Prince humperdink the spotting thing is more about blood than women. Like eggs not being ok of there's s bloodspot.

IMO hierarchy is what does it. Power over a system of faith gives power over the people and it's proven that can bring out the need to dominate etc (think Stanford prision experiment etc) and thats where it comes in. None are inherently patriarchal or domineering/controlling of women but they have been bent that way.