Gareth Malone - I'm furious at the idea that boys and girls need treating like this

[JaneS]

I've been watching the Gareth Malone 'School for Boys'. I know been discussed elsewhere, but I am really angry and want to know if anyone else feels the same.

The programme is apparently meant to look why boys do worse than girls in school, which I agree is a really important point. However, the solution here is to say that boys need hyper-macho teaching - and the girls don't. Now, I know I should leave aside the fact that for centuries girls underachieved academically, and no-one thought this was remarkable. But I find myself watching this programme and smarting.

When I was at school, I was a tomboy. I liked being competitive (according to this programme, something boys - but not girls - benefit from). I liked being active; I hated sitting still. I was punished for it at school, even though I got good results.

At university, men perform better than women - the opposite of what happens at school. Suddenly, it seems that being outspoken, argumentative, or 'typically male' is an asset. If you are a tomboyish girl, you can't win. At school, you are not sufficiently feminine and polite. At university, you are a girl and so less is expected of you - for your problems are doubtless the result of your timorous feminine nature.

I know I'm coming on strong but I am so cross about this - is anyone with me? I don't doubt boys would benefit from different kinds of teaching, but doesn't this particular approach only make things worse for some girls?

[IseeGraceAhead]

I'm on Mumsnet rations, so haven't read this thread ... but am STILL so incensed by last night's programme, I had to come & see whether someone had posted about it! Honestly. What a retrograde, insulting idea! Quite fun to watch, but that's not the point.

By the boys' own analysis and the teachers' admission, girls perform better in literacy because they speak quietly, get their heads down and do what they're told. Boys don't want to do this, apparently, so they get a different kind of education. How come no-one asked WHY the teachers are requiring stereotypical 'female' behaviour in literacy classes? Instead of giving the boys different lessons, why aren't they addressing their teaching policies? If they want to offer two kinds of teaching (which might be a good idea) - why aren't they letting loud, competitive girls join in the 'fun' classes?

How on earth did such a mindlessly sexist programme idea get approval? And how did the very young, seemingly intelligent Gareth end up so bigoted?

GRRRR! Thanks for the rant Will catch up tomorrow.

[ISNT]

If it's about all of the children, why didn't they take the boys and girls who were underacvieving/failing and give them all the outdoorsy treatment?

If this program is successful, the message will be, let's get things more interesting and active for the boys. Of course it will.

There will not be an equivalent program for girls, of course there won't.

[JWWells]

This isn't about teaching genders separately nor is it about the girls not needing competition or outdoor learning. This is an experiment.....will boys improve (especially those who have not been so successful so far), if they have a different type of teaching and environmental input and style.
Should girls be included? YES!!!! But this prog is about BOYS! Put aside the anger be reflective and think.... do we need to address the significant national underachievement of boys? If yes, what might make a difference? If current education isn't doing it for boys in particular, then what changes could we try? Malone offers an alternative - great! Does it work? DISCUSS!
Of course Girls would benefit. Of course some Boys are not competitive. This is not the specific we should be looking at. The objective view is education suiting the needs of ALL and should it be changed, adapted and reviewed? Well done Mr M and the school for taking the risk to test the hypothesis!

[TessOfTheBurbs]

They were sweet, weren't they? I liked the boy who argued "Well.. the highwayman can't be that bad, because he has a true love."

True indeed, the girls relished the competition!

[LadyBlaBlah]

I think your head might actually pop off dittany

[LadyBlaBlah]

I think the problem has made a gender politics issue out of the problem that school has become very dull for many children - too much bureaucracy and very little room for creativity (teacher and pupil)

However, I do also think that at group level there is a difference in leanings for boys and girls (just to reinforce, I do not mean always at individual level). I think there is something in the male leaning towards maths and science / building systems. And I also think there is nothing wrong with that.

However, I agree, the premise of this programme is very naive, and is trying to solve a problem (of uninspiring teaching - and before I get rebuts from teachers - I think this is because of the stifling system) with the wrong solution.

Without wanting to be rude, the head of that school was incredibly dull and uninspiring, and the 2 teachers who were interviewed seemed similar - and put them in the system we have - it adds up to unengaged kids (boys and girls). Therein lies the problem. Not the way in which children of different sexes learn.

[CrunchyFrog]

I didn't watch it either, I hate being sent into an incoherent rage of an evening.

At university, while teacher training, we had to do those tests to find out what our own "learning style" was. I was told by the tutor that as a strongly kinesthetic/ aural learner, I had a very "male brain." That still upsets me now, stupidly. I am a woman, therefore I have a female brain, surely? And I am also surely not the only delicate little flower female to prefer learning by doing?

I teach SN, at the severe end of the spectrum, so learning through play is a massive part of how I teach. Also lots of physical stuff before any sitting down quiet learning. Just sensible, really.

[anastaisia]

We home educate.

DD has always been a sparkley princess type of girl. She's always tagged along behind big girls and groups of girls. But it's never prevented her climbing trees and getting messy - she was just the one doing it in a princess dress!

She's now 5 and her birth year friends have been in school a year. When we go to parties or meet up with them in big groups now they quickly split into boys and girls but she suddenly doesn't play with the girls much anymore - she still plays like the boys do and prefers to join them.

I think the change is from her girl friends who've gone to school and not from her - because the way she plays at home ed group hasn't altered at all and the way they all play in a smaller group hasn't changed. It just seems to be the dynamics in a large group. And it happened really quite quickly after they started school.

[TheSmallClanger]

I haven't watched this, but I agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread.
Like StayFrosty says upthread, there never was a golden age of schooling where boys took their lessons whilst running laps around the classroom and hitting each other. If anything, school used to be more regimented and about sitting quietly and getting on with work.

I've got a 12yo DD and I HATE this continuous, subtle guilt-tripping heaped on girls and their parents. Male academic supremacy can't have been that great if it only existed in contrast to female underachievement.

[thecatspjs]

Thank the Lord it isn't just me. I was incandescent just watching the trailer for this, and point blank refused to watch the actual programme, which is a shame because I loved the choir programmes and generally think Gareth is great.

I nearly put something on the other thread but thought I'd get massively flamed for it so I didn't. Apart from the fact that as everyone else says,all children could benefit from competition and physical activity attached to learning, no one cared AT ALL when learning was for boys only (am I right in thinking that girls were "failed" at the 11 plus so that other, less able boys could take their place? I think I have read that somewhere - someone feel free to contradict that though).

Even though I have a DS, there is part of me that is secretly pleased that girls outperform boys, even if it is only for a few short years. All too soon, the "natural order" of things is resumed, the pay gap kicks in, etc etc

[openerofjars]

What was the gender of the programme makers? Who were they targeting as viewers? DH and I regularly disagree about gender perspectives on TV: he just finds "Mock the Week", for example, funny, whereas I can see funny bits but also feel excluded by it.

I didn't watch the programme under discussion but wondered whether it's another case of "us and them" broadcasting? And I also wonder why programme makers feel the need to use gender as a division. It is most odd.

DS is still a toddler but I am constantly aware of how the he will be shaped by the attitudes around him, including my own. Even the sodding trains in "Chuggington" uphold gender stereotypes, ffs. I hope that when he's older he won't feel able to blame any lack of success on the idea that his education was "feminised": it is such a load of crap.

I remember IT classes at school in the early 90s when girls would do typing, unruly boys would run riot and nerdy boys would be encouraged to have a go on the school's one decent PC. Grr. It took me years to feel confident in my IT skills. And I still can't type.

[ISNT]

The competition thing is something I am finding utterly baffling as well.

I went to a high-acheiving private girls school in north london. It was well known to be highly competitive. It was highly competitive. Everyone knew it was competitive. No-one was wringing their hands and saying "ooh but girls aren't any good at competition, they don't like it, this is terrible". It was very successful, and it was very competitive....

i don't understand all this. Some people thrive on competition, others don't. Again, the insistence on segregation on gender is grounded in what? Where has this idea come from? It soesn't even seem like common sense .

[Indelible]

I think the thing I'd read about competition was that it discourages children from taking risks - the ones who are used to being "top" become more invested in maintaining their status than in learning, so they won't do anything that might make themselves look less good, like ask a question or risk a wrong answer.

[Indelible]

I think the thing I'd read about competition was that it discourages children from taking risks - the ones who are used to being "top" become more invested in maintaining their status than in learning, so they won't do anything that might make themselves look less good, like ask a question or risk a wrong answer.

[ISNT]

Also anecdotally our 3yoDD and her best friend go to the playground together - DD is very adept at climbing. Her best friend follows her onto the equipment but often gets stuck, calls for help, nearly falls off, has a cry etc. He's a boy and is nearly a year older.

If their preschool separated along gender lines, it would be unfair on DD and unfair on her best friend. IMO. DD would not be able to enjoy her physicality, her friend would spend his days in a state of stress and anxiety.

The whole thing's a load of rubbish, isn't it.

Thing is her friend is pushed by his parents to do the physical stuff, because he is a boy. If he were a girl I don't think there would be the same pushing IYSWIM. All of this gender stuff is terribly pervasive. I am guilty of it myself, feeling proud that DD is a better climber than an older boy. The only thing to do with these feelings is recognise them and try not to express them to the children.

[ISNT]

Has there been a change in primary education? I'd love to see some stats. All of my teachers at primary school were women, and I went to two different ones. Admittedly they weren't schools where you'd expect to find hordes of men (convent school then all girls school) but still...

The school I hope DD will go to has 2 men in it (they are the head, and deputy head, naturally ), and at her preschool there is a young man who works there full time.

I have heard this said a lot and would be really interested in seeing it with my own eyes IYSWIM.

Just asked DH and he had one male teacher of about 5 in Infant school (ahh sweet, Infants) and about 3 out of 9 in Juniors...

Well that huge sample doesn't prove much

[JaneS]

Bright, that's interesting about competition. I do think part of the problem is that girls are told they're not competitive, and teachers also expect not to find them being competitive - it's a double-whammy.

At university, boys start outperforming girls, and this is often put down to lack of competitive spirit.