Veganuary??

[Wimpeyspread]

This is not intended to be a goody question, simply trying to understand. Articles in the news saying Veganuary will save thousands of farm animals - what do people think will happen to these animals?

[Baaaahhhhh]

kinsss Yes, me too. I don't have much dairy, as it disagrees with me, and I have easily cut down (but not completely cut out) red meat, but I do eat a lot of chicken, eggs, seafood. Chicken has half the carbon footprint of a cow so that's a gain, and if you purchase seafood carefully and locally, it is tasty and can be good for the environment, Amercian Crayfish are lovely, and need eating to keep them under control. We also export most of our (UK) seafood, which is crazy. That's my current strategy anyway, and is something I can easily live with.

[kinsss]

Am neither veggie nor vegan, but cannot remember the last time I ate meat, probably in a Shepherds Pie or something like that.

So to me it is a matter of taste. I am sorry to add that while veganism is the religion du jour for many principled people, it is not for me. Far too much work involved in making sure EVERY little thing you eat has absolutely NO animal products in it. But that's just me.

I think the gradual approach is a good one, cut down on meat consumption and take it slowly if you want to. Going from carnivore even if it is relatively rarely to full on veganism is not easy in one go. But there is merit in making those of us who do not subscribe think about it a lot more.

That's my approach!

[AppleJane]

@noblegiraffe that comment was originally in relation to the planet. We, as humans, have mistreated the planet's resources (if you want to throw animals and plants in there, be my guest) and perhaps it is time for us to start looking after them instead. Are you a climate change denier? If not, do you agree that time is running out and a change needs to happen?

[noblegiraffe]

It was your line between conqueror and caretaker that I was specifically interested in, Applejane, but no worries.

[AppleJane]

@cricketmum84 I went from vegetarian to vegan, I know exactly what you mean! Cheese was a very convenient way to make sandwiches etc so I struggled with that at first.

My current favourite is red pepper hummus with cucumber on a decent bread.

I stayed away from fake cheeses for months until I forgot the taste of real cheese. I recently bought a recipe book with a huge selection of vegan cheeses in it so I'm hoping to experiment soon!

I am so happy that on New Year's Day I finally nailed (after months of experimenting) a vegan 'milk' chocolate cake that my whole family loves.

Being successful at baking is usually just knowing the 'secret'. The secret for me with the cake was to use low protein flour (think opposite of bread) so it's not heavy!

The secret to stretchy cheese is tapioca flour

[AppleJane]

I never said it was you @noblegiraffe
I was explaining why I'm no longer up for a debate.
If you're really interested you can find all the answers on google as to where most vegans draw the line. I wish you well.

[cricketmum84]

Ah thanks @AppleJane I must admit I'm finding it a lot more difficult than I thought. I've been vegetarian almost a year, swapped to soy milk and yoghurt a few months ago so I thought it would just be a case of giving up cheese which I love and eggs which I ate very rarely anyway.

I never realised how many things have dairy and eggs in the ingredients though!

[noblegiraffe]

someone else's words 'stupid' and 'pointless' that pretty much puts an end to any decent debate.

That wasn’t me.

But it would probably be pointless.

Why? I’m interested in your view of meat-eaters as conquerors but plant-eaters as caretakers when both are living things. It appears you draw the line at nervous systems and pain receptors - is it not about identifying with animals and not with plants?

[AppleJane]

@noblegiraffe I was up for a sensible discussion. But to be honest when someone calls someone else's words 'stupid' and 'pointless' that pretty much puts an end to any decent debate.

I could ramble on for hours about your carrot. About nervous systems and pain receptors. About evolution and human conscientiousness and our responsibilities in the modern world. But it would probably be pointless.

@cricketmum84 well done 5 days in!! Excellent example with regards to the pregnancy forum point

And the cheese withdrawal does get easier. Without going and looking it up I'm pretty sure I read that cows milk is addictive (to encourage the calf to keep re-visiting it's mother's breast) so you're not imagining it!

[noblegiraffe]

applejane appeared to be up for a discussion. I was just wondering if meat-eaters are seen as thinking of themselves as conquerors of the animal kingdom why the same does not apply to the plant kingdom. Basically we all have to eat living things to survive but draw the line in different places. I’m not sure that drawing the line in a different place to another person makes one a conqueror and the other not.

[cricketmum84]

I'll be honest with you @GetawayfromthatWelshtart I'm only 5 days into veganuary and I'm so hungry I could probably eat another vegan. God knows how I'm so much hungrier than I was as a vegetarian. I'm blaming the cheese withdrawals.

[GetawayfromthatWelshtart]

Sorry if I offended anyone with that post, just wanted to inject a bit of laughter...

I'm nowafraid to grow my tomatoes this spring in case they turn me into a cannibal!

[GetawayfromthatWelshtart]

Lighthearted random fact - some plants give off toxic chemicals when they are being eaten by other animals to make them more toxic or try and kill those eating them. They also release chemicals that alert other plants in the area that they are being attacked.

Tomatoes actually release a chemical to make caterpillars eat each other instead of the plant.

I have foreseen the future. Its not a zombie apocalypse I need to be afraid of. It's an invasion of vegans eating each other due to the plant toxins!!! runs and hides

[cricketmum84]

Can you imagine if someone went on to the pregnancy forum for example and started questioning everyone on why they were increasing our population problem?? Asking them to explain their reasons for getting pregnant.

Same here. It's a vegan forum. Can we not go anywhere without all the meat eaters having a go??

[noblegiraffe]

How did you prove to your satisfaction that a carrot wanted to die before you ate it?

[AppleJane]

How do you know, that it knows, that it doesn't want to die?

Until someone can prove to me that an animal does want to die to become my dinner then I would rather err on the side of caution and not eat it.

My pets don’t talk to me in human language either but most pet owners can figure out their pets ‘wants’.

It was bred with that purpose

By a conqueror. Yes, that’s my opinion. Isn’t that what forums are for? I wouldn’t expect my opinions to be very popular on the farming forums but as we’re in the Vegan section…..

[Pinkyyy]

@AppleJane

If an animal doesn't want to die can it's death ever be considered humane?
What a stupid question. How on earth would you know that an animal 'doesnt want to die'? Regardless of that, it was bred with that purpose do it would have never been alive.

Do you think there will ever come a time when we stop seeing ourselves as conquers of the world and instead caretakers of the planet?
Who decided that's what we see ourselves as? Was it you? That's also a pointless question because it's based on how you see the world, personally.

[Baaaahhhhh]

If an animal doesn't want to die can it's death ever be considered humane

How do you know, that it knows, that it doesn't want to die?

[Baaaahhhhh]

quoting a study funded by animal agriculture? Check out 'What the Health' on Netflix to see just how far people will go to fund studies to benefit their own cause

AppleJane Sadly the same can be said by every documentary which has been produced to highlight issues with the meat and dairy industry. They are funded by "interested" parties too and are edited to show the industry in a particularly unfavourable light.

I am hoping to see something unbiased and which reflects the actual reality in the UK.

[Disco91]

Also if your vegan what are your thoughts on alcohol production? As fields of wheat and barley are being grown to go into alcohol production......?

If I was vegan for environmental reasons surely this would need to be considered also?

[Disco91]

If you are considering becoming Vegan for environmental reasons I would recommend taking some time to study the the facts about agriculture (specifically British agriculture and grass fed rearing systems). Netflix, BBC and Channel 4 are pretty bias and they base a lot of facts on American feedlots.

British lamb and beef production plays an important part in storing carbon (ie Carbon sink), protecting biodiversity and utilising marginal land that cannot be used for arable crops but can grow very good grass. The crops that are fed to animals are only fed to animals because it's not a good enough grade to go into the human food chain (there are different grades of wheat, barley and oats depending on quality). If we all moved to vegan diets, the British agricultural sector cannot fill the demand for food and more and more food will be imported from abroad, increasing not decreasing our collective carbon footprint.

I understand why people feel uncomfortable about the slaughter of animals, I feel that is a much more valid reason to become a vegan than because of supposed effects of British agriculture on the environment. However another point I'd like to make is the welfare standards of British animals is far superior to the rest of the world and Europe. The EU have imposed many regulations in recent years and sadly only the British farms have applied them in many cases ( for example in pig production). To think of them living miserable lives as they wander round munching grass is pretty laughable, they are living in their natural environment and being cared for every day of their lives.

Finally many British farmers operate at a financial loss, for example, in the UK one third of sheep farmers are losing money, another third are breaking even and only the rest are making a profit. I don't know what your thoughts are of our farmers but with such grim financial situations surely they must be doing it out of passion and love for the industry, not to line their pockets.

[AppleJane]

@Pinkyyy it was a joke about Godwin's law for those forum users who have been around since the start of the internet. It essentially means that once you've mentioned Hitler (or avocados) you've lost the argument.

I'm quite happy to explain to you why I think avocados are a red herring but you have cherry picked your way through the thread only answering the questions you want to.

To be honest, I've been waiting for you to ask me where I get my protein and mention B12 so I can shout FULL HOUSE bingo style!!

Ready to answer those questions yet?

If an animal doesn't want to die can it's death ever be considered humane?

Do you think there will ever come a time when we stop seeing ourselves as conquers of the world and instead caretakers of the planet?

[Pinkyyy]

@AppleJane you can't just like avocados to Hitler and write them off as irrelevant.

[AppleJane]

@Pinkyyy how about watching 'Cowspiracy' on Netflix then pop back to the Vegan board to let us know if you stand by your statement?

Also check out Godwin's law (the fact that sooner or later someone will mention Hitler in an argument) Avocados are the equivalent to Hitler in a vegan debate.

@noblegiraffe quoting a study funded by animal agriculture? Check out 'What the Health' on Netflix to see just how far people will go to fund studies to benefit their own cause.

[Pinkyyy]

Meat production (more specifically beef and lamb) is one of the biggest contributors to the environmental problems

So we need to change the way we produce meat. Not cut it out altogether. Although all those avocados are benefiting out planet beautifully, aren't they.