Are teachers talking about this (concerned at all?) IRL - children wanting to change gender etc

[Leafstamp]

Disclaimer: I do, or at least have at various points in the past, hung out on the Feminism Board.

But I am genuinely interested to know whether the topic of gender identity in relation to the curriculum, but also children themselves who have gender issues is coming up much in schools.

There seems to be a lot in the news about it (if you follow this sort of thing) and wondered how teachers are finding it.

[canyouextrapol]

Blind acceptance and parents don't get a say in my school. Large numbers of kids are now trans. I feel like we're messing them up

[ValancyRedfern]

I am a FWR regular and have been very concerned for many years. Other staff at my school becoming aware and I talk about it a lot with colleagues. I used to be scared to talk but I'm not any more. Most staff agree with me that it's a social contagion and unquestioningly socially transitioning students, most of whome are girls on the autistic spectrum or likely to be lesbian, is potentially very harmful. I am currently challenging whole school policies. I feel I have to but it is scary. I am aware of two teachers who have been fired over this issue, and if I am I know my Union wouldn't support me. But I can't be complicit in harming troubled teen girls.

[Leafstamp]

@canyouextrapol

Blind acceptance and parents don't get a say in my school. Large numbers of kids are now trans. I feel like we're messing them up

I presume the environment is that teachers are not 'allowed' to question it?

Such a sad state of affairs. Sadly, I think there are going to be a lot of adults who are going to realise they have made poor judgments on all this.

[Leafstamp]

I'm glad you aren't keeping quiet anymore @ValancyRedfern. As a worried parent, I'm grateful. I do recognise you name from the FWR boards so I know you have lots of support from the brilliant women there.

I worry that no one in education understands things like the Cass review and don't think it's their job to understand.

[canyouextrapol]

Not allowed to question it. Not allowed to tell parents in some cases. Have to use one name in class and another name when we contact home. My school still lists mermaids as the first place it recommends parents visit. Some staff are starting to put pronouns on their emails. It's a single sec school too

[Leafstamp]

@canyouextrapol

Not allowed to question it. Not allowed to tell parents in some cases. Have to use one name in class and another name when we contact home. My school still lists mermaids as the first place it recommends parents visit. Some staff are starting to put pronouns on their emails. It's a single sec school too

OMG, not telling parents is a major safeguarding issue surely? Could you whistleblow to the council or contact governors anonymously?

[Shiningsilverargent]

Yes, it is being discussed in the staff room with increasing levels of cynicism but I would say we are an unusually older staff team (vast majority over 45). We have one trans boy in school. I believe the parents approached the school about it.

I teach PSHE and there are a number of students who are vehemently vocal about trans rights who are not trans, Yet, I guess. We are due a meeting as a department to discuss what line we will be taking but the wholesale blind adhesion to the cause is worrying, in my opinion.

[GrammarTeacher]

We're a supportive school. And I have no problem with it whatsoever. I have had trans students in my form. We have also had some non-binary students. No issues.

[Leafstamp]

Interesting @GrammarTeacher

Do you have any theories on what has made your school like that? Involvement of outside agencies/resource providers? SLT?

When you say you have no problem with it whatsoever, I am curious if you are up to date with the Cass report and the NHS proposed specifications and therefore disagree with them or if you have not read them?

[chosenone]

Fairly sensible approach at our school. Change of name and pronouns only if parents consent. Teachers not allowed to talk one to one about gender identity have to referral to heads of year/pastoral staff. PSHE doesn’t confuse sex and gender thankfully. We do have the ‘diversity role models’ in though!

[ValancyRedfern]

I'm currently challenging the proposed trans policy, which is to affirm immediately and not tell parents. Also not to tell parents of other children if they will be in mixed sex accommodation on residential trips. I've practically learned the Cass review, Equality Act, KCSIE and the new NHS proposals off by heart to support my point, but I am being fobbed off and ignored.

[Littlebluedinosaur]

@ValancyRedfern if a parent asked outright about the mixed sex accommodation issue, would the school lie and say it was single sex if there was a trans child?!

[Postapocalypticcowgirl]

@Leafstamp

OMG, not telling parents is a major safeguarding issue surely? Could you whistleblow to the council or contact governors anonymously?

I think it's a very grey area legally- I'm not going to comment on what I think is right or wrong, but as far as I'm aware there's nothing in current safeguarding advice that says a child wanting to be known by a different name or use different pronouns is a safeguarding risk. At the moment, there's nothing to whistleblow.

Equally, some children would be at genuine risk of violence if you told their parents they were even discussing these things.

I'm not suggesting it's the correct policy, and I'm sure some governors would question it. And I know many parents would not be happy. But if you whistleblew, you'd get nowhere in a lot of cases.

In a lot of cases, students will change their name and pronouns, but still use toilets and changing rooms for their assigned sex at birth. They aren't accessing, in most cases, any kind of medical intervention, either. I think, in some ways, making this taboo could cause more harm than good.

That said, my place would encourage students to discuss name changes etc with parents unless we felt there was a really strong reason not to. And we wouldn't allow what is effectively mixed sex accommodation on school trips.

[Leafstamp]

This may be relevant re changing name www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities

Re medical intervention, Cass review talks about social transition not being a neutral act. And recent NHS proposed specs quotes here are relevant too www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11341001/NHS-discourage-social-transitioning-gender-questioning-children.html

Sex isn’t assigned at birth btw, it’s determined at conception and observed and recorded at birth. Quite often observed in utero too.

[Postapocalypticcowgirl]

@Leafstamp

This may be relevant re changing name www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities

Re medical intervention, Cass review talks about social transition not being a neutral act. And recent NHS proposed specs quotes here are relevant too www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11341001/NHS-discourage-social-transitioning-gender-questioning-children.html

Sex isn’t assigned at birth btw, it’s determined at conception and observed and recorded at birth. Quite often observed in utero too.

We're not talking about a legal name change though, students in this possition are well aware that their legal name will be used on things like reports and external exams. And NHS guidance clearly does not apply to schools.

So who do you suggest a teacher "whistleblows" to?

You clearly think this is wrong, but at this moment in time, schools that follow this route are not breaking any laws. If you feel that is incorrect, then what you need to campaign for is a change in law/guidance to schools.

Most schools would encourage children to discuss the situation with their parents, and would facilitate/support a conversation around gender identity. But if a child expresses they are at a risk of harm if they discuss the situation with their parents, then things become very difficult. And in that sort of situation it is best to try and keep some kind of line of communication with the child, rather than shutting everything down.

Would you rather go back to the days of Section 21?

[Leafstamp]

Not breaking the law is rather a low bar to set for what goes on in schools.

Schools should not be facilitating social transition without hearing from a professional that that is the appropriate psychological intervention to take for a child with gender identity issues.

If a child says they are at risk of harm then that should be an immediate safeguarding referral.

I think you mean Section 28 and I don’t know why you think that’s relevant here.

[Leafstamp]

This thread may of interest www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4683127-miriam-cates-asks-ofsted-about-age-appropriate-rse-materials-political-impartiality-and-guidance-on-dealing-with-pupils-with-gender-distress?reply=121736015

[Tryingmuchharder]

@canyouextrapol

Blind acceptance and parents don't get a say in my school. Large numbers of kids are now trans. I feel like we're messing them up

Blind acceptance leading to the messing up of huge numbers of children. Roll forward 10 years and what a mess when a huge number realise the lie they were sold and that it was their confidence or mental health that needed help.

Fortunately, more and more people are realising the damage that is being done to children who 'feel' like they are 'in the wrong body'.

[SquirrelHash]

I work in an (academy) special school where around 35% of the kids are on the autism spectrum. We go from age 5-16 though most are secondary age.

We don't cover trans/gender dysphoria or gender identity in our PSHE/RSE classes, as it's thought that ASD kids are more likely to experience these issues and there seems to be some evidence on it in terms of stats. We have our own curriculum and write our own schemes of work.

We have no non-binary or gender dysphoric pupils that we know of.

[Leafstamp]

@SquirrelHash

I work in an (academy) special school where around 35% of the kids are on the autism spectrum. We go from age 5-16 though most are secondary age.

We don't cover trans/gender dysphoria or gender identity in our PSHE/RSE classes, as it's thought that ASD kids are more likely to experience these issues and there seems to be some evidence on it in terms of stats. We have our own curriculum and write our own schemes of work.

We have no non-binary or gender dysphoric pupils that we know of.

I missed this before.

Brilliant news and well done to your school.

Hopefully the new RSE guidance will address this. The

I don’t think schools and teachers realise how harmful the messages coming from gender identity ideology are. Especially, as you say for children with autism and other vulnerabilities.

I always think of that haunting quote from one for the Tavistock staff joking that ‘there will be no gay people left’.

[Postapocalypticcowgirl]

@Leafstamp

I missed this before.

Brilliant news and well done to your school.

Hopefully the new RSE guidance will address this. The

I don’t think schools and teachers realise how harmful the messages coming from gender identity ideology are. Especially, as you say for children with autism and other vulnerabilities.

I always think of that haunting quote from one for the Tavistock staff joking that ‘there will be no gay people left’.

If it helps, I teach in a pretty liberal school which is fairly LGBTQ+ inclusive, I would say around 10% of the older students I teach are gay/lesbian/bisexual. Last year I taught two FtM trans students, this year I don't teach any. Maybe it's the area I teach in, but I don't feel there are so many trans students compared to perceptions in the media.

In the past we did have an issue with a student who said they wanted to transition in school but they didn't want parents to know. Our pastoral staff made the point that we could not guarantee this could be kept a secret from parents, because there is always a risk of a supply teacher contacting home, or a student telling their parents in the community. They said if they wanted to use a different name/pronouns in school then it would be much better to discuss with parents first with support from school (worth bearing in mind this was a student over 16)-this is what happened, and I think an agreement was made that they could use their preferred gender/name in school.

It hasn't come up, but I don't think we'd allow a younger student to use a different name/pronouns in school without discussions with home. Generally, it's home coming to us saying "Can you now call them X and use (pronoun) instead?".

If there was genuine risk of abuse, we'd follow safeguarding processes, just as if there was a genuine risk of abuse due to being gay.

I do understand why people are concerned about some of the messaging, but equally you have to bear in mind as soon as you tell teens they can't do something or it's forbidden, it becomes the most popular thing to do.

When I was at secondary school, Section 28 was still in force, and our teachers wouldn't discuss anything around the existence of e.g. gay people. School was a horribly homophobic place. I'm bisexual, and I genuinely think my school experience damaged me for life. I'm glad we can at least talk about these things openly in school.

[Leafstamp]

It’s reassuring if perhaps the number of children identifying as trans is decreasing though I’ve not seen any proper data to suggest that.

As for the point about ‘forbidding’ things, I know what you’re saying but clearly that’s not a reason to allow children to do things that are not in their best interest. Smoking and vaping is forbidden.

Also I don’t necessarily see it as ‘forbidding’ social transition, I see it as more like discouraging them from wanting to do it in the first place. So it’s more like it’s not ‘forbidden’ per se to skip lunch or make yourself sick in the toilets but rather that we know those behaviours don’t help underlying problems and that sometimes they can lead to bigger problems. Same with changing pronouns - no evidence that it’s beneficial and plenty of evidence that it leads to bigger problems. And not just for the child asking for new pronouns.

[GrammarTeacher]

There is evidence that social transition is beneficial though. There never has been an epidemic of this in schools. In twenty years of teaching I've taught 3 trans students. 2 ftm who joined us having socially transitioned for sixth form. And 1 mtf who transitioned at 28 and is happily married to her female partner. And two non-binary students.
Much happier with how schools are now tbh honest. In my sixth form years I was relentlessly bullied in my girls' school for being bi having been called a lesbian in lower years for fancy so called feminine male celebrities. Since then (late 90s) around 5% of the year group at my girls school (that I know of) have come out as lesbian. It makes me sad they couldn't at the time.
Regardless, the kids are ok. Would always be encouraged to speak to parents and if they believably say that would put them at risk then that's a safeguarding issue and has to be shared with the DSL. The final decision is never the classroom teachers.

[Leafstamp]

Could you point me to the evidence that shows social transition of children is beneficial? @GrammarTeacher

[Leafstamp]

‘Never has been an epidemic’

Theres been a 5000% increase in GIDS referrals.

Its clearly a significant issue as research by Policy Exchange Asleep at the Wheel report) and Sex Matters has shown and if it weren’t then there wouldn’t be such demand for guidance from Dept for Education.