Teachers- may I ask why some do this?

[Snap8TheCat]

Apologies for the brief OP but waiting to be called in for an appointment.

Why do some teachers move ‘naughty’ children next to well behaved ones with the hope that the better behaved one will influence them and settle them down.

It’s unfair on those children to now have to sit next to a disruptive pupil.

This happens to my son and they ruin lessons for him, chair being kicked, swearing, etc etc. I’ve seen it on Educating Greater Manchester this week too.

What’s the rational behind it? Thanks.

I'm really not in teaching for an "easy life", far from it.
I have to find ever more creative ways of making sure every child makes measured and targeted progress (heck - my pay and actual job hangs on this).
As much as I am frustrated by children who just want to chat and disrupt, and there are many, I have to cater for them. One of the only things I can actually control is the seating plan.

I do tend to swap mine around every half term though, just for variety and a change. If a parent requested a change, i'd make it.

I have mine in rows of pairs with two separate desks for the worst offenders. It's crowded when all 32 are in though.

OP - what do you suggest teachers do to cater for disruptive pupils?

Actually, thinking on, I was the studious, quiet girl put next to the very naughty boy in primary school. I tried to give him some help with his work, and we became friends, he was actually really funny. I even went to his house for tea a few times and he came to mine. He was in foster care.
Sometimes, unlikely but wonderful things happen in schools.

I refused to accept the notion of using the quiet child to help policing the gobby ones. I was an introvert at school and still am now. I feel sorry for the quiet ones and they are the students I should be spending the most amount of time and effort on to help them. When I first started teaching, there was this thing called Every child matters. I used to laugh at that because it seemed like only the naughty ones and the C/D borderline kids mattered.

Speak to HoD, HoY in the first instant. If you don't raise your concern, it might take a long time for it to get better.

My dd is the geeky one that gets the badly behaved kids next to her. But. It has opened her eyes to a lot of things, and I honestly think it has been good for her. She now has some affection and understanding for those kids shed used to be scared of or dismiss, And I think it is part of life lessons. It certainly hasn't held her back academically, but has given her more insight about people that wouldn't naturally have been her peer group.

With all due respect, postage, the suggestion that SLT would even entertain the thought of trying to sort out a teacher's seating plan is rather ridiculous.

I see your point but in my independent school it would be taken seriously 😊.

leccybill I don’t know, I honestly wish I could go to the teachers with a magic solution. As I’ve said, I have enough on my plate dealing with ds and his ways. He saves it for home! He just wants to get his head down, work and eee his friends at break times. He doesn’t want to listen to bad language next to him or have the table jogged about because they have a strop or have his work critiqued by a lout. Maybe they could sit in their own? Nobody wants them next to them! I don’t want to move this problem from my child to another.

None of my children behave disruptively, so I don’t have experience of dealing with it. It probably comes from a certain type of family, we know lots of sibling sets that behave similarly to each other, whether that’s good or bad.

You've said he gets in-school help with his anxiety, so school are making provision and adjustments to support his learning. That's inclusion at work. Just like making adjustments to support poorly behaved kids (and remember, all behaviour is communication so that are issues behind disruption, whether it's the child's fault due to their upbringing or not).

I don't agree with your generalisation about a 'certain type of family' either. Just read the Teenagers board on here, it happens to lots of families, even teachers' families in some cases. Outside influences play a part or even just a 'don't like school' mentality.

It’s an outside charity that come in and do one session a week with a small group of them.

His issues don’t stop anyone else from working though.

And it’s not the teachers making adjustments for them, it’s expecting other pupils to make adjustments for them.

Couple of things. I do as others do, but move them around, so that the quiet kids 'do their time' and then have a break. I tend to put quiet anxious together in a row that serves as a shield between two rows as chatty children. Seriously disruptive children are usually on their own. In two classes, I have them in a pair at the front where they behave well because I'm constantly glaring at them. If they do bubble up, it's easier to shut them up if they're in front of you.

Doesn't always work, though. Some kids just do not fit in a particular class and will misbehave wherever you put them. Damage limitation then.

Secondly, I would not contact HoY without contacting class teacher first. As said, it's very unlikely that the teacher would not rearrange.

A lot of other posters have covered the whys, so I won't repeat, but do send a polite email to the HOD and express your concerns. At the very very least the teachers can be made aware of the impact this is having on your son, and survey the situation more closely.

As for sitting a disruptive student on their own - I don't teach in the UK, but where I teach class sizes are big and there is often no spare seat, or only one. Even so, believe me, some children are very capable of completely disrupting your class, even when isolated.

Just ask the class teacher to move him away from the disruptive kid and say that it's affecting his anxiety. That you understand the 'good role model' argument but in this case it's detrimental to your child's education and mental health and his needs need to also be taken into account.

TBH there should be space in a classroom for a poorly behaved kid to be sat on their own if necessary.

I do have sympathy for your ds and think you should address it with teachers. But you need to have some sympathy too for a child who may have adhd or other issues and for a teacher who is doing their best in trying circumstances.
You say your ds lets it all out at home. He is not always going to love who he is besside . On here we have office workers who hate their smelly apple eating snuffling coworkers who talk too loud and too much. Maybe talk to him about understanding the other guy . But first you need to understand him a bit yourself.

My dd is in a similar situation, but the class is moved around for different activities. For example she is a strong reader so when they are all reading the class novel she is sat next to a child who is weaker. I believe her school move the kids anyway once a month so she isn't always next to same person. I wonder if you could suggest this to your school.

It probably comes from a certain type of family, we know lots of sibling sets that behave similarly to each other, whether that’s good or bad.

Wow. Stereotyping ahoy.

Also completely wrong.

But you need to have some sympathy too for a child who may have adhd or other issues

may have we don’t know. And I do know that my son has anxiety. Do you imagine that the parents of the children who may have ADHD are wringing their hands over sympathy and concern for my child or any others in the class. Probably not. I imagine they also have enough on their plate worrying about their son and getting the right help for him. As I shall do for mine. Why is it the quiet and meek are always told to make way and give allowances for the brash and bold? Do you think anyone sits him down and tells him to make allowances for my son? Do you think they would listen?

Do you imagine that the parents of the children who may have ADHD are wringing their hands over sympathy and concern for my child or any others in the class. Probably not.

Actually quite a few do.

You want control over who is in classes and who they sit next to...you pay for private ed

Luckily that isn’t the only option.

As a teacher and a parent I can see both points of view.

I actually wrote a letter to DD2s teacher last year asking for her not to sit next to a certain boy as she always got stuck next to him and hated it. It was low level things he would do like encroach on her space, nudge her and bump her whilst she was working, take her things and not give them back. He also had very poor personal hygiene and his hands were often up his nose, down his pants or in his mouth and he wiped his fingers in her a few times which was unacceptable, I can understand her the teacher put him next to quiet studious DD2 but when it was affecting her work and her enjoyment of school that's when I asked her to move him.

Dd was always seated next to the more challenging children in Primary purely because I think she was very able at keeping them in line. Having three brothers (one with autism) meant that she was adept at ignoring any attempts at distracting her and had a death stare that would stop a charging bull There were four very challenging boys went through primary with her and I don't think any child escaped unscathed from one or the other of them and yet they never ever bothered dd. It must be difficult though if your child struggles when placed next to difficult peers.

TBH there should be space in a classroom for a poorly behaved kid to be sat on their own if necessary.

Much easier said than done. I teach in a naice independent and 8/10 times this is possible. But if I had another 10 pupils in the classroom and significantly more of them had behavioural issues (which statistically that's what state teachers face) it just isn't possible.

The class teacher will probably move your child if you ask OP- I would. BUT be aware that he may not be the worst in the class- just the one you know about. So be careful what you wish for.

I get your frustration, especially as a parent, but as a teacher I really resent the fact that you think we don't care about the quiet, studious children or that we are doing things for an easy life.

Firstly, the quiet studious children are often the ones that are going to respond best to our teaching and therefore likely to do well in exams etc - so we'd be mad to to do something that puts their learning/chances of achievement at risk!

Secondly, we think about these things very carefully, we are forever second guessing ourselves, discussing seating plans with colleagues or revising opinions and trying other solutions. Actually, nearly every aspect of teaching, including seating plans, are under microscopic examination/observation/pressure from our line managers and senior leaders so there is no way that we would get away with doing anything for an easy life or anything that disadvantages pupils.

Thirdly, we are professionals and have degrees and qualifications in education. We know all about disruptive behaviour, we've written essays on children with anxiety and how to help them make progress, we've sat through intensive INSET training on all the latest ideas and solutions which may help make a difference and, on top of all that, we have a lot of experience and know what we're doing.

And, lastly, most of us are pretty nice, conscientious people who care about your child. We did not choose this career because it pays well or because it is easy or because we would like always to have our holidays at the busiest, most expensive times of the year. No, we chose it because we like kids, we care about making a difference to the next generation and we think learning is spectacularly important and changes lives. And the vast majority of us, after a polite phone call, would do whatever you ask of us.

Snap8TheCat

The seating plan in my class is such because I don't have the room to fully separate the disruptive pupils out.

Because I am a teacher every child has to have a fresh start at the beginning of each lesson and if they continue to disrupt the lesson or learning of other I remove them from the room.

I get complaints from the disruptive because they are not next to their mates, I get complaints from their parents because they get told off, I get complaints from the parent's of the good pupils because their children don't want to be near the disruptive pupils, and I get moaned at by the SLT for the behaviour of pupils in the class.

I am stuck between a rock and a hard place and all pupils must be seen to be able to make "good" progress.

Throw a few pupils with SEND in there and I (and other teachers) have very few (no) options.

Ok. I get it. I do.

Now in all honesty, putting your mum hat on instead of your teacher hat, what would you do if you were me?