What do we do re dog and child? So shocked and upset

[Mojitomogul]

We (well my mum) rehomed a collie cross lab 6 weeks ago- from my friend who has had him since a puppy, he's four now. He is perfect in terms of recall, calm nature, gentle play, good with other dogs. We thought we had landed such a lovely dog- and with adults he is. But two weeks in, my two year old nephew- whom the dog had met on walks and been stroked by etc, and was very gentle with him- dog was sitting next to me at mums house and I was stroking him, and nephew came up slowly among side and reached out slowly and gently to stroke dog. Dog then suddenly turned round, growled and grabbed nephews arm(thank god did not draw any blood or even leave a mark, we think it was a warning bite). I was so shocked and since then we have not left any of the nephews alone with dog. But tonight dog has met nieces who are 4 and 6, and 6 year old was sitting on the arm of the sofa, I was next to dog on the sofa. Niece was stroking dog gently on the head and then suddenly dog did exactly the same as he had done with nephew. Thank god I was right next to them and managed to grab dogs head before he even got to nieces arm. So she was unharmed but just upset by the growl. But we are at a loss and so upset. He has such a good life with us, hes not bored or frustrated, loads of toys and 3 hour walks daily. We feel so upset as it just comes out of nowhere. He must be scared of the children as he has never been around them before us rehoming him. What the hell do we do? Can this be trained out of a dog? Is it inbuilt? Shall we rehome him to adults only home? My nephews and nieces are only round every 2 weeks or so but we want them to be safe. Hes absolutely fine with them out in the walks -this has happened only at home. So upset.

Give the dog a chance, it is still early on in the settling in phase. Keep the kids that visit separate and work on his behaviour. A dog isn’t a toy to be abandoned just for exhibiting warning behaviours.

Be sure to have two barriers between the dog and the children

Good idea. I was bitten badly by a dog who was afraid of children. It was normally just kept in the kitchen when I visited but got out into the garden once by mistake and went straight for me. It’s taken me 30 years to get over the anxiety that single event has caused and I’m still incredibly nervous when I see a dog off lead now.

Yes - as much as you like.

Many dogs "mouth" people - it is affectionate, but should always be discouraged as they can exert pressure which can hurt and bruise, even though the skin doesn't get broken.

It doesn't mean that it's a bad dog - just that it needs to learn acceptable behaviour. Dogs which do this usually like mouthing or carrying toys around, so distraction by offering (say) a teddy or a ball can help.

Is this your first dog OP ? Because if so it takes time to “read” dog body language etc.
My dog makes a growly noise if I fuss her, when she wants more fuss, and a dog I grew up with would hold tightly onto my arm with his teeth out of absolute love. I am not suggesting this is what your dog did, just that without being there it is hard to tell if your dog was overtired and grumpy, nervous and possessive, territorial, or stressed. If you are very used to dogs, what do you think ?

Your child approached the dog from behind.

By no means am I saying it’s okay what happened, it’s not, but I certainly don’t blame the dog either. Nobody is to blame. It’s not a bad dog. I never approach any dog from the back even my own.

Some of these comments 🤦🏼‍♀️. Don’t listen to a word from people who use the words ‘dominance’, ‘hierarchy’, ‘higher in the pack’, ‘know their place in the pack’, or any other bs regarding dominance theory.

I have owned a dog who hated big men, not slim men, just overweight/muscly. She was a rescue and first displayed the behaviour about 3 weeks in, despite having been seemingly fine around them prior to that. We now know she was likely feeling unsure prior to this and not feeling comfortable enough to display her true character. We kept her and made sure she was away (as in completely fool proof secured and muzzled to be certain) when our bigger male friends were visiting. I won’t lie to you, it was STRESSFUL, we were always on edge and it’s harder work than you’d imagine (ie. people of that description turning up unannounced such as meter readers, workmen, delivery men etc etc etc) and we never felt we could do anything on the spur of the moment, our friends stopped dropping by for a brew/drink etc and we did become known as the family with a nightmare dog. Sadly that behaviour started to show whilst we were out of the house after about 3 months too, so we had to keep her muzzled when outdoors, and could only allow her off lead in the enclosed field we would hire occasionally. I had a constant fear of her escaping the garden or slipping her lead and hurting someone. I think that would have been an even heavier burden if she’d disliked children.

However! She was the most wonderful dog otherwise, and even though when we lost her we felt a sense of relief alongside the awful grief, I am so glad we kept her. I have no regrets about keeping her, and she gave us plenty of love and happy memories which more than made up for the stress she put us through.

You say you don’t think it’s pain, but some things, such as ear pain really hurt them and rather than suggesting your niece/nephew were hurting him, it’s possible he was anticipating that they might and so he was warning them. I cannot stress enough that you should get him to the vet to be checked ASAP. Dogs mask pain so well that it often takes an expert to spot a problem.

I’m sorry this is long, but in all I’d say that it depends on your commitment levels here. If you’re able and willing to consult a vet and a behaviourist and to potentially spend the rest of this dog's life making sure he is completely unable to get to children, then you should absolutely keep him and you’ll likely not regret that decision. If you don’t think you can manage that (and it is a huge amount of work, so no judgement here if you can’t) then rehome with full and frank disclosure.

Very best of luck.

Anyone trying to guess what this dog was doing with the barest of info and not being in there is being foolish.

This dog needs a vet and a qualified behaviourist ASAP. It needs someone to observe the dog in order to make an informed estimate about what is going on and suggest ways to manage or improve it.

In the meantime, the dog needs extra care to keep it away from all children.

Can you take him Back to friend who had him since he was a puppy? Not safe to keep him as unsafe for children. I would think that your gut feeling is correct, that he feels threatened by children. You would feel horrible if something happened, you can't risk another incident.

Again take him to the vet, it may be health related. It doesn't need to just be an ear infection, it could be anything.

I have a rescue dog that is like this with children - she has obviously been abused by them in the past. I don't have any so it is not a problem and none visit. When we are out, she is put on a lead as soon as there is any possibility of walking near children. You should not let any child approach your dog - it is not fair to either of them. I do not believe any training would eradicate the fear of children from my dog's mind (though she has got better and can walk past them on a lead without shaking and trying to pull away). I would never assume that she would be OK for them to approach. If your dog will have to share a house often with children, it would obviously be better for him to be rehomed via a good rescue and be upfront with them about his fear of children, so they only rehome him to an adult only home.

We are on our second collie cross girl and they have both been quite particular about visitors.

Our first collie cross did not like children except for our daughter. She was exceptionally well behaved and never did anything to anyone but her body language would tell us how nervous and uncomfortable she felt around children. For this reason, we never allowed children who came to our home to be near her her unless she had space to move away and I was always very strict about children touching her or trying to play with her when we were out. She was very protective and possessive over me and my daughter too.

Our current collie cross is only 9 months. She's not keen on any male visitors and is still unpredictable. We are working with a trainer and she is crated to avoid any really stressful situations at home as I'd obviously hate for anything to happen. She is scared/nervous of various random things and can bark in a very aggressive way when she's scared. She is an amazing dog and she adores her home and family, including our cat and hamster, but she dies feel the need to be in control and despite their high intelligence collie crosses are not an 'easy' choice of dog.

They are very intelligent dogs who 'overthink' and are obsessive about things and there is likely to be a reason for the behaviour you describe which is not simply aggression.

You've had some really good advice on here about giving the dog a safe space. Do not allow your dog to be put in a position where it is unhappy or uncomfortable, it's not fair on anyone and will only make the problem worse.

Get a behaviourist (preferably someone who has experience with collies) and spend some time learning about your dog's body language. Once you've learned how to spot how they are feeling you can ensure that you don't put them in high stress situations until you've done a lot more training (Or possibly never).

Excellent post re Collies Roses
They are very intelligent dogs.

These threads always make me feel a bit sad at the number of people who jump in to say the dog can never be trusted and should be pts 🙁 .

If animals could talk, mankind would weep.

I agree, Fleas. It sounds like the dog hasn't been taught that children aren't puppies. It's quite acceptable in dog language to do a little warning nip and have a growl. Doesn't denote a vicious dog at all. Quite the opposite; an irritated/startled vicious dog attacks. This one sounds like it needs some boundaries, that's all.

I do think it will be your portion sizes , how much does she genuinely eat. Your dd only weighs two pounds less than my nine year old daughter at 40 pounds. I was concerned she may be underweight but was told her weight was perfect by her consultant.

You’ve had excellent advice here (vet then behaviourist) but I just wanted to say that I have four children and a rescue dog who is terrified of strangers coming into the house.
She adores her family but turns into a devil hound if anyone else walks in.

We manage it with gates, a muzzle and rock solid training to stay on her bed, making sure visitors know to stay away.

It’s tough in a busy household but very manageable and she’s the loveliest dog in every other way.

Good luck OP.