Rescue dog barking at the children

[Liberty5]

Hi

Any tips or experiences, I need some help! We got our dog on Saturday, 5 month old (Shih tsu cross) from a rescue centre. He’s lovely, but very unsure, scared, missing his kennel companion as always been with dogs and I think pining. He’s been generally doing great considering, but on Sunday afternoon he started barking at our children and now does it whenever they enter the room. Short growl then short sharp loud barks. They have been very gentle and calm with him, been supervised and we have given him a lot of space and quiet. He has been mostly in our large kitchen/diner/family room settling in, the children have been in the lounge / rest of house, coming in to see him for short periods to not over worry him with one of us with the kids where they are and one of us with the dog so he’s not left alone. They haven’t been rough with him or loud or crazy, but he clearly feels upset/threatened by them and the children are now getting scared of him. I’m calling a puppy behaviourist/trainer this morning to arrange a 121 in the house (he’ll be having general puppy training classes with her going forward) but any advice from anyone for starters? I knew he’d need a lot of TLC and training and I’m at home most of the day and my husband works from home so we are here but I’m a bit dismayed about this turn of events. He’s fine around me and my husband, he’ll sit on our laps and be stroked and fall asleep and is happy to be handled. He’s also been happy to lie on the sofa and be stroked by my eldest, but when she walks in the room he’s had started to bark at her. If he’s on a lap he’s a happy and calm, if he’s generally padding/sitting in the kitchen and they appear he’s a stressball. It’s not just someone coming in the room - he’s quiet until he see’s it’s one of them in particular. I know we have taken on a dog that needs a lot of time and love and training and we are all prepared to give it. The dog was ok at the premeet with the children before we took him home and had been happy to be stroked by them, no indication of not liking them, but I think he had the confidence of his kennel mate there which helped him (he had been in a foster home for a week with a smaller fog rather than in the main kennels when we picked him up.)

[MissPepper8]

@frostedviolets it’s not an adult dog, it’s a puppy

I missed this entirely, there is totally time for you to teach pup that barking doesn't get rewarded. 5 months is a difficult stage that's when our collie started barking at me, collies are harder work but you can totally do this op.

5 months all dogs go through toddler stage, of testing boundaries with teething, nipping ect, clicker training and treating for quiet behaviour is your best bet and ignoring (must get kids to totally ignore him or it won't work).

[FAQs]

@frostedviolets a 5 month old puppy won’t know how to be on its ‘best behaviour’ it’s a very young dog without any home experience, you suggesting the OP returns it after 3 days and get a puppy from a nice breeder is ridiculous advice.

It is prime for training, my dog was around 16 weeks from similar circumstances and took patience and understanding (something you clearly have none of) to train.

OP the best thing we did was puppy classes and puppy social classes, it’s also good for your children to learn and bond, ours is 3 next week however it took about 4 weeks for her to settle, the poster who suggested a pen or safe space is spot on, the dog needs a area it can go to to feel secure.

[FAQs]

@MissPepper8 totally agree. Our trainer advised us to turn to the side and no eye contact when our dog barked and nipped.

She was still secure we were there but learnt we wouldn’t interact when she did this behaviour, she picked it up quickly.

My parents had a collie for 14 years, super intelligent and caring dog, we really miss him.

[frostedviolets]

5 month old puppy won’t know how to be on its ‘best behaviour’
That's not what I meant at all.
What I said was a rescue dog won't show its true character for a while.
For the first few days they often appear on 'best behaviour', when I said that I meant as in they are stressed, overwhelmed etc so appear quieter, better behaved.

Their true character comes out later.

I was saying that if it's so uncomfortable at this very early stage around the children the OP may find the aggression get worse as time goes on and the dog gets more comfortable.

it’s a very young dog without any home experience, you suggesting the OP returns it after 3 days and get a puppy from a nice breeder is ridiculous advice
I suggested returning a young dog that is clearly anxious and uncomfortable around children because such a dog isn't going to enjoy the home life OP is offering and will be happier in a home without children.

I don't understand why taking a dog out of a situation it's clearly seriously unhappy with (home with young children) and putting it in a situation where it will be happy (child free home) is being seen as such an abhorrent thing

I suggested a puppy because, well actually, I've already typed out my reasoning at least twice so not going there again.

[frostedviolets]

It is prime for training, my dog was around 16 weeks from similar circumstances and took patience and understanding (something you clearly have none of) to train

Omg how did I miss this nonsense!

I almost spat out my tea..

FYI I also have a collie, she's had some pretty significant behavioural issues that have actually taken years of training and patience and understanding to work through..,

Everything I have said has been in (what I believe to be) the best interests of the dog.
The dog is clearly frightened of children.
Let it go to a home that suits it and be happy.

[FAQs]

Returning after three days also doesn’t teach resilience, respect and patience to the children, it sounds as though the oldest child is doing well, nothing wrong with working through these early days, do you usually give up on animals with such ease when these could very well work out for the family and the dog.

[FAQs]

If course it’s frightened it’s been 3 days.

[MissPepper8]

I don't understand why taking a dog out of a situation it's clearly seriously unhappy with (home with young children) and putting it in a situation where it will be happy (child free home) is being seen as such an abhorrent thing

I just can't with your comments anymore about returning a young dog for a puppy. We don't know if he is frightened this could be an attention thing.

A dog is a commitment, if we all returned puppies and dogs when we encountered problems, our rescues would be over run. It's been 3 days, as i've said not even a young puppy would be settled by then!

It's a new home, it takes time and dogs are huge commitments, how could you ever say you haven't given the poor dog a chance, if we all returned them like you.

My dog was from a breeder and she still had anxiety issues with me leaving her, your comment, a puppy is a better solution, is not only cruel, it's stupid. Any dog could encounter this, good breeder or rescue.

[frostedviolets]

Returning after three days also doesn’t teach resilience, respect and patience to the children, it sounds as though the oldest child is doing well, nothing wrong with working through these early days, do you usually give up on animals with such ease when these could very well work out for the family and the dog

The OP states the dog on seeing the children does a 'Short growl then short sharp loud barks' and that it appears threatened and stressed when they are doing nothing at all, just being present.

That is not a simple training problem, that is a fear aggressive dog and it is a problem that has the potential to get very dangerous in a short space of time.

I am quite sure that if we were talking about a far bigger dog which the potential to do far greater damage it probably wouldn't even be being discussed, it would already be back.

Just because it is a small Shih tzu doesn't mean it can't do serious injury.

The OP states the children are already becoming frightened of it.

A lot of dogs are not comfortable around children and the dog shouldn't be forced to stay in a situation where it is so frightened it actually feels the need to growl and bark at the mere presence of the scary thing.

Its all very well talking about resilience, not giving up etc but what happens if the dog actually does escalate and bite?

Which if not dealt with quickly and correctly it absolutely will...
Fear aggression doesn't just disappear, it gets worse without intervention.

If it does bite, most rescues will not rehome a biting dog.

Most likely it will end up being PTS.

The whole situation is all shades of wrong for everyone concerned.

[frostedviolets]

We don't know if he is frightened this could be an attention thing
It really doesn't sound like it from the OP.

A dog is a commitment, if we all returned puppies and dogs when we encountered problems, our rescues would be over run
There are different levels of 'problem'
A dog that is so frightened of children that it turns into a 'stressball' in their presence, that growls and barks and the mere sight of them, that appears 'threatened and stressed' is a problem that requires professional help, it has the potential to end in injury and isn't always fixable.
Our rescues are overrun.

It's a new home, it takes time and dogs are huge commitments, how could you ever say you haven't given the poor dog a chance, if we all returned them like you
I suggested returning a dog that is extremely unhappy and demonstrating behaviour that if it escalates poses a safety risk to OPs children.
I really don't see how that is such a terrible thing.

[heatseeker14]

It sounds like you are doing the right thing asking for help from a behaviouralist/trainer. If it is not right for your family, please don’t beat yourself up. My parents decided to rescue a dog when I was 10 years old. She growled and barked a lot. I didn’t like being near her because she really scared me. A few months later she had to be returned to the rescue centre. It is not a pleasant memory to be honest. Do what is right for your family and the dog.

[Liberty5]

Hi, OP here. I typed a long response earlier and my phone shut off and didn’t save, so briefly, thank you for all your advice and information, I appreciate it. The barking was so bad today that my daughter went to school in floods of tears. I phoned the rescue and their behaviourist gave me advice as did the foster lady who has had him a week, most of which we were doing. Children are young, 7 and 3 so was surprised they felt they had a suitable dog as so hard to get one from a rescue that can be homed with that age range. On closer questioning they have no info on dog’s history other than likely from a breeder, they had him 3 days before he went to foster carer who had had him less than 24 hours when she phoned me to talk through my application information as she had my details from the home. Key issue for me was the children’s ages and if he’d be suitable as a family pet - she reassured me so but she can’t have been confident about this - neither she nor the rescue have any info it seems that would support him being a good family dog, if he’s been socialised at all with children or lived anywhere other than kennels /with breeder so I’m a bit cross with them and a lot with myself as I don’t think he was ever a responsible fit for us as a family and I should have probed further at the time to discover this.

Anyway, today the barking continued when my son and daughter were back, in the end I put him in the utility room which is attached to the kitchen with a stairgate on so the children felt safe to come in to the kitchen to eat. He whined through dinner but that was better than barking at the kids by the table! I've avoided this until now as we tried to get him to sleep in there the first night with the door open and stairgate on (not housetrained so hoping to contain the mess at night) but it was clearly too traumatic for him - a lot of dogs seem to want secure small spaces to feel safe but he seems the opposite - likes open spaces he can’t be cornered in so he slept in it with the door open. since we opened the gate after dinner he hasnt barked once at the kids who have been in and out getting ready for bed. He’s sat on my lap to be stroked and watched the children playing in the lounge (only 2nd time he’s ventured in ) with interest rather than just barking at them. The show of authority seems to have made an impression, I think we have tried not to scare him in his first few days and subsequently forgot to signal his position in the pack. He has been much improved this evening, no barking, even a wagging tale. Behaviourist has given me a situation to create to determine if it’s a genuine dislike for Children If he’s just trying to see if he can boss them /me about. so finger crossed it might be trainable and not the dogs essential nature or conditioning. We are hopeful for tomorrow, as this afternoon I’d thought there would be no way we could safely keep him. Thanks again, lot of food for thought here and techniques to try. I hope we work through it, he’s a lovely dog, been through a lot. He just has to like my children a bit!

[Booboostwo]

The rescue sound very irresponsible. They had him for far too short a time to be able to assess him properly.

Only, sorry but 7 and 3 are too young to be able to deal with a reactive dog. They are much more likely than teens, for example, to make a mistake and get bitten.

Finally, dominance, pack theory being boss and the dog respecting you are all outdated rubbish and more likely to get you bitten as well. Who spoke to you in these terms about dog training? Was it the behaviorist? If yes, he is a waste of money. Find someone registered with a decent professional body, e.g. www.apbc.org.uk/Did the behaviorist talk to you about desensitization and counter-conditioning?

[Liberty5]

It was the behaviourist at the rescue centre, the one I was getting in privately is coming today so I will see what she thinks. She didn’t tell me to put him in the utility to show him ‘who’s boss’ though in those terms - I just did that to get the kids in the kitchen for dinner and it had a marked impact on his behaviour so those are terms I used In supposition rather than in dog training theory. If we do return him i still hope to get a rescue dog but we’d be much more careful next time. The home we got him from thoroughly vetted everything about us and our lifestyles, it was a multi stage process including home visits and interviews so it seemed to be a comprehensive job profiling out suitability to home a dog - they just didn’t seem to look at the suitability of the dog for us. Anyway, it’s time to hit the kitchen and see what I find!

[frostedviolets]

He has been much improved this evening, no barking, even a wagging tale

Be very careful here.
I'm glad he appears to be improving but bear in mind that the wagging tail signals arousal.
Nothing else.
You need to look at the tail position, direction of the wag, speed of the wag and the rest of the dogs body language to accurately assess.

[frostedviolets]

Examples:

[frostedviolets]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/canine-corner/201112/what-wagging-dog-tail-really-means-new-scientific-data%3famp

[Liberty5]

Thanks for this, I’ll read and digest, a lot to evaluate today for me, it’s a steep learning curve with a new dog and I’ll do my best for the dog and for us. I hate to give up on him without trying but it may well be he will be happier in a house with no children and my children will be safer and happier with eventually a dog that’s more relaxed around children.