Dog boarding school

[houselikeashed]

Our dog is about to go to boarding training school. Has anyone done this? And was it successful? I'm imagining we'll miss him terribly, as will our other dog. He is out of control though so we need to do something. I know it's our fault we didn't train him enough when he was younger, but we've never had a Spaniel before and just weren't thorough enough.

Anyone want to buy a 2 yr old Sprocker Spaniel?

OP I do feel for you. Not everyone has the time and energy for hours of training, that said, it's why I chose the breed I did as I know I can't physically walk a dog for hours every day (plus work). It's unfortunately far too easy to criticise and blame.

I do agree that it maybe isn't the best solution but at least you are trying.

Thanks. I AM trying. Everything. Lets see how it pans out.

Please don’t sell him. I volunteer for a spaniel charity. The right home can be found for him.

I can't see this working if I'm honest OP. You'll send the dog off and the trainer will work with him and prob get the dog to do what he wants

Then he'll return to you. He'll be trained, but you won't be! And gradually the dog will just return to how he behaved before as he will realise you aren't in control the way the trainer was

You BOTH need training. Together

The horse analogy. I work in this industry. You get horses in for training. The ones it works well for are those that the rider is then trained thoroughly within the horse afterward. And I don't mean just a few quick sessions.

Why can't you walk your dog on a (short) lead? There's no need for an untrained dig to be off lead.

I nailed on-lead manners first. Those basic walk to heel manners are the start point for off-lead recall.

OP I know you are just trying to do everything you can to keep him. I am not going to judge you. Sprockers are becoming another dog that people are often misled over.

Lots of sprockers end up rescue for the this reason.

I am just concerned that they arent involving you enough and so it's going to be wasted money.

I did work 1-2-1 with a trainer like you suggested, but we couldn't find a reward he wanted more than to hunt.

Then you hunt with him. Mine has a strong hunting drive. On our walks I am never walking looking at the scenery like other dog owners. Forget a leisurely walk anywhere (gun dog trainer told me that).

I am either throwing a ball, getting him to do a trick for a short catch of a ball, or hiding balls in the undergrowth while he sits and I give the command to find them and I help him search by directing him and then telling him to get his nose down and find it.

That hunting drive isn't going to disappear when he comes back. You aren't going to work him so YOU need to work with his drive. You also don't need to do strict gun god training. I use some of the techniques I learnt but we do it our style. But if you think after 4 weeks you can walk through the countryside with the dog walking by your side off lead whilst ignoring his drive then I do think you will struggle.

@BiteyShark is exactly right. You have to make yourself more rewarding than his poor behaviour. Not all dogs are food driven. That's not the best thing in the world to them. Some dogs just want attention and approval

Your dog wants to be worked. So you have to give him work to keep him with you.

I honestly would consider using the boarding school money for training for you both. Not trying to be shitty or judge you. But you do need training as much as he does.

Agree exactly with biteyshark you have to find an outlet for his hunting drive and make yourself rewarding

I know it's not what you want to hear but it seems that if you can't put in the time/effort to basic training, impulse control etc and work to make yourself more rewarding then this simply won't work (unless extreme aversion is used) and you probably need to consider lead walks

Good luck OP but be prepared for this not to be the perfect solution

@houselikeashed
How much have you drilled the basics? Impulse control, settle, recall, heelwork etc?

This is what you need to focus on with the trainer - it sounds like if the trainer couldn't find a reward (such as play) to drill these in an unstimulating environment, then they weren't very good.

My suggestion would be to consistently drill these for around 6 months, using play as a reward before attempting off lead work - this foundation is essential for future success. Sprockers are very trainable but they need to be engaged.

Training doesn't need a lot of time - a 5 minute training session is plenty. But they have to be done repetitively and reinforced daily. Any activity that undermines the training has to be stopped.

drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/dog-training-classes-can-and-should-be-more-than-sit-stay-stand/
www.dogstrustdogschool.org.uk/training/i-want-to-train-my-dog/training-videos/
canineconcepts.co.uk/self-control-dog-games/
thehappypuppysite.com/teach-dog-impulse-control/

You are still not saying what kind of training techniques the trainer will use. I bet you either know or suspect that he will use aversives and want to avoid a lecture because you've seen the improvement and are desperate to try anything.

In my opinion, aversives can work very well. I would bet the trainer used aversives in your day session because they tend work really fast. They also backfire and you could end up with a whole load of new problems. Aversives often suppress the unwanted behavior which gives short term impressive results, but because the root causes have not been addressed, the problem resurfaces. Aversives also risk created a stressed, fearful or defensive dog.

Mine does obey me more, but that doesn't mean she doesn't know the commands.

But knowing the commands is irrelevant if they're going to ignore the person dishing them out.

Dogs know when they can get away with bad behaviour - they're not daft. Mine knows my husband will feed him from the table and therefore whines and begs at his feet all the time. I never do that so he will go and sit on his bed when I'm eating, or lie quietly on the floor by my feet.

If OP doesn't follow the techniques and the rewards that the dog learned with the trainer then the whole exercise will be pointless.

What exactly are aversive?
She put a slip lead on him and gave two short tugs.
It really didn’t seem cruel or painful. He’s always had a harness on before now so it was a surprise for him. (And he doesn’t fear the lead going on him)

Did the lead have a stopper to prevent it over tightening? Or did it literally go as tight as the human on the end of it pulled it

Their necks are v delicate. Yes it would hurt him (otherwise why do you think it worked!!!!) and could actually damage him

If it had a stopped on not so bad. I use slip leads as I hate clips, but they have stoppers on to stop over tightening! I also don't yank on them.

Yanking on leads is no considered old fashioned and aversive as it's training through discomfort

yes it does have a stopper

OK, it goes like this:

There is positive and negative reinforcement.

The positive means that you add something and reinforcement means that this strengthens a behavior. So an example of positive reinforcement is giving a treat when a dog recalls to you.

The negative means you take something away and reinforcement means that this strengthens the behavior. So you push the dog's bottom until he sits, at which point you remove the pressure.

Then there is positive and negative punishment.

The positive bit is when you add something to make a behavior disappear. So your dog is chewing your shoe and you shout until he lets go.

The negative is when you take something away to make behavior disappear. So if your dog ignores you when you ask for a 'sit' you do not give the treat you are holding in your hand.

Reward based training techniques like clicker use positive reinforcement and negative punishment like the example of not giving a treat to a dog who does not sit.

Positive punishment is basically aversives, things the dog does not like. Mild aversives are the use of the voice or a loud noise, but aversives can become progressively stronger such as tugs from choke and slip collars, hitting, electric shock collars, etc.

Personally I have only used mild aversives sparingly, e.g. my voice to get the dogs to stop rough playing and pay me attention, or in an emergency, e.g. water when two dogs have begun to fight in earnest (and honestly I have only used this once and seen another trainer use it once in years of being around dogs).

There is no evidence to show that positive punishment training techniques work better than positive reinforcement ones and there are studies that show risks of increasing fear and aggression in a dog trained using positive punishment training.

Giving tugs on the lead is intended to be painful, what else do you think the trainer intended by it?!!! Repeat enough times and you will find that you will have trouble getting him to go anywhere near the slip lead.

But knowing the commands is irrelevant if they're going to ignore the person dishing them out

I disagree, knowing the commands is key in training. You can say 'sit' all you like, if the dog hasn't been taught the command it won't know what you are on about. Depends on the dog, but mine is good and will obey anyone, just maybe a bit quicker with myself than husband, but she will still do it. OP has mentioned she will be doing regular check ins on her dog so the techniques and methods will be consistent. If this means the dog just gets a crash course that OP can't do herself then its far better than knowingly having an out of control dog and not doing anything about it.

Not everyone has the time to devote to getting a 'perfect' dog, but as long as you are actively working on having a more obedient dog then thats fine. Judging on here can be quite harsh sometimes :(

A stopper to stop it over tightening? As in the lead has 2 stoppers in it? One to stop over tightening and another to stop it over loosening?

OP it needs two stoppers to control the level of chocking. One stopper stops the lead from over loosening and most are like that because then you can well and truly choke your dog. A minority have two stoppers so you can control the level of chocking.

Either way please don't fool yourself, you are chocking you dog.

OP has mentioned she will be doing regular check ins on her dog so the techniques and methods will be consistent. If this means the dog just gets a crash course that OP can't do herself then its far better than knowingly having an out of control dog and not doing anything about it.

Check ins are different to being involved in training.

The dogs learned behaviour when with OP is negative. Though positive to him, because he gets what he wants.

Being away in a different environment, training and returning to an environment where, for 2 years, he has done what he wants is very difficult. Unless the owner is consistent with the training.

Its jot about being judgemental. Its about see the huge pitfalls. If OP foesnt have time/cant train the dog and isnt taught how to maintain the new behaviour then it's pointless.

A strong willed dog will, try and revert to it's old behaviour when back in its familiar environment. OP need to know how to work through that and get the dog understand that old behaviour isnt going to be allowed to carry on.

It's like a person. I like to sit in the couch with my feet up. I went and stayed with mil for 2 weeks. She doesnt like that. So I dont do it at hers.

When i come home I havent forgot I like putting my feet up. I eoikd sit on the sofa and put my feet up without thinking about it.

This dog has spent 2 years, living one particular way. Theres a high chance he will revert back, unless op is very involved in the training.

OP

You're absolutely right that a couple of tugs on a slip lead are not hugely aversive. If he's not used to neck pressure they are a surprise and will get his attention. But for how long?
Because tugs aren't particularly aversive he'll acclimatise to them quickly.

To avoid this you either need to make focussing on you more rewarding than everything else (through rewards, games etc as we've already outlined.
Or you need to up the aversiveness - increase the yanking, add in a choke chain, then a prong collar. I've worked with multiple spaniels and sprockers that will actually pull through a prong collar - to the point of neck injury.

Aversives ONLY work long term if they are VERY aversive, and that brings welfare problems.

Please do read the links in my post below and do some reading on learning theory - there are no magical fixes.

www.tweedekamer.nl/downloads/document?id=6ae14c69-00f5-42bf-b4c3-e5b87e3855fc&title=The%20effects%20of%20using%20aversive%20training%20methods%20in%20dogsd%3A%20A%20review.pdf

I use slip leads on my dogs, and trained heel with a combo of click and treat, and the lead as a mild aversive. Neither dog is remotely afraid of the leads: the total opposite, because slip lead =walk. I don't have a problem with mild aversives. Dogs use them on each other all the time. Nature uses them on dogs all the time too (thorns, things that taste horrible).

OP, if you are worried about outcomes from this sort of training, ask the trainer is he can put you in contact with previous customers. If you are going to be involved, you will see what methods are used and, importantly, how happy your dog is around the trainer.

OP has mentioned she will be doing regular check ins on her dog so the techniques and methods will be consistent. If this means the dog just gets a crash course that OP can't do herself then its far better than knowingly having an out of control dog and not doing anything about it.

Check ins aren't the same as being there and being fully involved in the training. If the dog goes off and learns how to behave, all he's going to do is learn how to behave for the trainer in those circumstances.

It's similar to puppies. They can be fab inside but then they have to go outside and learn how to perform the same behaviours with added distractions - new sounds, smells, other dogs, traffic, children etc. etc.

So the dog could be perfect with a certain trainer who uses certain techniques, but put him in a different environment with an owner who is clearly quite uncertain and you could easily end up with a frustrated dog who isn't being rewarded like they were in training.

Not everyone has the time to devote to getting a 'perfect' dog, but as long as you are actively working on having a more obedient dog then thats fine.

Absolutely, but that's also why people need to be really careful when picking a breed. Sprockers were deliberately bred to be high energy working dogs - they're not really ideal for domestic homes where they're going to get limited (to them) exercise and training. They're bred to work - they need a job. Similar to collies or beagles or other working breeds. You need to work your dog to get them to listen and to tire them out, if you will.

There's a reason people recommend certain breeds for novice owners - because they're easier to train and don't involve quite as much commitment as other breeds.