King Charles spaniels and heart condition

[HepburnKNotA]

Hi

DH, DD and I are all very keen to add a dog to our family - DH has owned before but I'm a novice and though we are all crazy about springer spaniels I don't think we're the right sort of people to have one! They are wonderful but I can't commit to quite that level of exercise, physical or mental!!

We're starting to research King Charles spaniels as we have met several lovely ones and they seem like a lovely friendly, good-natured breed, perfect for our family, our lifestyle and our size of house etc.

However I am discovering that many are prone to a genetic heart condition (?) and there is no way I can take on a puppy if there is a concern they will have serious health problems and die young - I couldn't do that to the puppy! Not much of a life for the poor thing :( We have already talked DD out of a pug because I gather they have terrible breathing problems. I want to put the idea of a King Charles out of her min RIGHT NOW if it'll be the same story on the health front!

However I am also discovering that the Kennel Club have very recently started to try to do something about this issue and that they are starting a scheme to try to limit the possibility of a puppy being born with the genetic defect in their heart.

Does anyone (FAR more knowledgable than me!!) know where I could find out more than I can simply read on the Kennel Club website etc? Are there certain very careful breeders you can speak to, who take this seriously and are trying to improve the breed's health?

Basically, does anyone know any more, and/or are there any KC Spaniel owners out there who might be able to tell me their experiences?

It's early days for us but we want to be sure we're doing everything we can to get a healthy puppy and with regret we would steer clear of a lovely King Charles if the risk wasn't extremely limited.

[TeacupRex]

Clicker training is pretty much based on classical conditioning (if you've heard of Pavlov's dogs study!) - they learn to associate the click noise as a marker for good behaviour, and using the click to reinforce desired behaviour can be more effective than just using your voice, as it's the exact same sound each time, and as you can imagine our tone of voice can vary a lot! Of course, it's totally up to you to decide what tools work best for training - some people love clickers, some prefer marker words such as "yes" or "good". Either works, as long as your dog knows that the marker means that behaviour will be rewarded with a treat. Definitely worth looking at some videos on how to condition your dog to a clicker. Spaniels respond so much better to positive methods of training, they can be very sensitive so harsh punishments aren't recommended. They're much more likely to learn if the teaching is fun and rewarding for them!

Personally I'm much fonder of the particoloured cockers (like roans, colour with white etc) - this might just be from what I've seen myself but the solid golden/red ones can be very feisty, dominant and snappy. I'm not sure whether this is just because they're the most common colour that puppy farmers tend to breed and of course that often ends up with poor temperament dogs. There is a bit of a scare around 'cocker rage syndrome' which is said to be a neurological condition that is very rare, but when it is reported, it's often seen in solid goldens, blacks and chocolates. Rage syndrome is also seen in Springers, Golden Retrievers, Poodles and Dobermans. But it's so so rare nowadays thanks to selective breeding - it's a genetic condition and no responsible breeder would allow a dog with such a condition to be mated. That's why it's so important to buy from a responsible breeder that breeds for health and temperament, and not puppy farmers and backyard breeders that only care about profit.

But yeah I would probably avoid the solid red ones, I know there must be some lovely spaniels of that colour but the ones I've met haven't really been great examples! I think with the standard poodles (and this could apply to any other breed) the blacks are the most common colour, therefore their breeders have a much larger gene pool to choose mates from, they can afford to be choosy with temperaments and health when there are so many to pick from. Less common colours like reds and silvers are not so plentiful, so if they want to breed that colour, they often have to either import them in from another country, or put up with some not so great examples of the breed with iffy temperaments. The silver poodles I've met have been very high strung.

A small note on looking at breeders - avoid the ones that are also dabbling in crossbreeds on the side. I've seen quite a few cocker breeders that also breed cockapoos - they register their 4 lifetime allowed litters with the Kennel Club, with unregulated cockapoo litters in between as the KC will only allow you to register 1 litter per year off one bitch, and obviously crosses cannot be KC registered. Definitely worth having a little look on Champdogs at the cocker breeders, looking at their pedigrees (are their dogs titled? A Sh Ch before their show name means they are a show champion), seeing what health tests have been done, maybe messaging them to ask if they have any litters planned. 'Cocker Crazy' on Facebook is an excellent group with loads of cocker spaniel owners that love the breed. Don't feel pressured to get a puppy because it's available at the time, a well bred pup is always worth waiting for, and a good breeder will want to support you and be a wealth of knowledge for the entirety of your pup's life.

[GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]

There is lots of clicker training advice on the net. Essentially, as soon as the dog does as asked (eg when arse hits grass in a sit), click the clicker, and then give a treat. Same with loose-lead walking: lead slack, dog next to you and looking at you, click, treat. The clicker lets you mark the split second the dog does the right thing, and it will soon twig that a treat will follow.

[HepburnKNotA]

Teacup - wow, that's an incredible amount of info, I can't thank you enough!

I've been looking at Champdogs already this morning and starting to get a sense of how to get to know breeders etc. I'm a total novice in this (as is DH, because he was a little boy when his parents bought their labrador) and want to be certain I'm dotting every i and crossing every t.

Also being a total novice - though I will look this up, it would be nice to hear from good owners like you guys direct - what exactly is clicker training? Sounds like spaniels (cockers in particular?) respond well to it?

Saw a beautiful cocker out on a run this morning, they are such beautiful dogs.

Wouldn't be at all interested in some fancy sable colour or anything, coat colour isn't important to us, just a lovely friendly happy dog. Are there any temperament differences at all between the coat colours, though? I only ask because I have some dim anecdotal memory of reading years ago that eg poodles can vary in temperament with different coloured coats (I recall reading that black ones were more laid back than tan/russet colours, but I may be entirely mistaken).

A HUGE help, Teacup, I can't thank you enough.

[TeacupRex]

From my experience, show-type cockers are happy to go as far as you'd like on a walk. I'm by no means super active, but mine have never decided they've had enough of a walk, sat down and refused to move. 30 minutes to an hour offlead over at the park is perfect for my two, although they never complain if it's a bit longer or shorter than usual! They also aren't fussed if they miss a walk, I know with some breeds you definitely can't get away with missing that one day, as they will literally be bouncing off the walls otherwise. Ours are chilled out in the house, active and curious outdoors.

It's hard not to completely fall in love with cocker spaniels! My dad (who is a fairly big guy) wasn't overly keen when we first suggested a spaniel, he actually wasn't a dog person at all before. Now he's totally besotted with them. They are definitely not delicate little frou-frou dogs lol!

I also work from home, they can be prone to separation anxiety because they just love being around people. Of course, as long as you build up leaving them alone they should be absolutely fine to be left. But they are very sociable with people and other dogs, and really wouldn't suit a life where they are left on their own the majority of the day.

Cockers are very trainable, and whilst they would not excel quite as much as their working-line counterparts at things like gundog training or agility, they tend to be very food orientated and will work for treats. I've found clicker training to be a useful tool for mine. It's important with all dogs to teach them from an early age that jumping up at people will give them no attention. Recall is also very important - thankfully the show types tend to be less drivey than the workers and Springers, and in theory should be less likely to run off after birds and squirrels. They are still spaniels after all though!

Regarding breeders, I'd have a look on Champdogs and maybe put yourself on some waiting lists. A good breeder should be happy to answer any questions you might have, they should be passionate about their chosen breed and will be asking you questions too! Always a plus if the breeder is actively showing their dogs (whether that's in conformation, obedience, Good Citizen Dog scheme..) to prove that they are breeding quality. Show Cockers should be health tested for Progressive Retinal Atrophy and Familial Nethropathy as the bare essentials, eye examinations and hip scores are also great to have done. Definitely do check the inbreeding COIs with the Kennel Club's mate select as we are seeing more and more issues with very closely inbred dogs of all breeds. It shouldn't be too much of an issue with cocker spaniels though as they are very populous and have a large gene pool.

Cockers come in a huge variety of accepted colours. There is a lot of controversy around breeding for the 'sable' colouration - it's not an recognised colour in the breed, and as you can imagine there are a lot of unreputable breeders trying to cash in on this 'rare' colour, and many often charge much much more for a sable cocker simply because it is unusual and sought after. I would avoid breeders that are purposely breeding for colours that are not recognised by the breed club. Health and temperament suffers when a breeder is purely focused on creating pretty coloured dogs.

I will also add that their lovely, silky coat does need regular brushing and trips to a professional groomer to keep them looking nice and matt-free. But I think this is true for any spaniel that isn't clipped super short. Their coat attracts all sorts of seeds and burrs and you need to be especially diligent with checking their skin for grass seeds, all that long hair can easily hide it! On the plus side though, a well maintained coat doesn't shed an awful lot (they're definitely not dropping hairs like pine needles!) and they are wonderfully soft to stroke. Those long ears are a blessing and a curse - as you can imagine they drop them into everything - in the grass, the mud, in their water/food bowl! Ours wear doggy snoods when they have their dinner so their ears don't get in their food! They can also be prone to ear infections due to the long ears, but if you can keep the ears clean and dry, you should be able to avoid this. Thankfully ours have never really had ear issues.

If you have any more questions I'm more than happy to go on and on about cocker spaniels! The breed has absolutely stolen my heart.

[GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]

I love working spaniels and they are very trainable (and not all of them are manic - I know a fairly chilled line of working springers) but good luck with your search for a show-line one. One of my big concerns with a show-bred litter would be the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) as sometimes show breeders (and, to be fair, some working breeders) are so keen to get to a particular look that they will breed dogs that are too closely related for comfort. You can check a mating's COI on the Kennel Club website (search for the 'mate select' tool). Ideally you want it below 5%.

[HepburnKNotA]

Oh Teacup, that's a good suggestion - a pp made it too, thanks also!!

Hadn't really looked into a show type cocker but we're ALL types of spaniel-crazy here, so I don't think DD would need much persuading

We certainly don't need a particularly low energy dog, DH is an ex (very bouncy) labrador owner so he's very concerned about me pushing us towards what he sees as 'wussy' dogs! But adorable though springers and some cockers I have met are, I just can't handle that level of BOUNCE and the need to work. I work from home so I'm a good companion for any dog but I do need to WORK, I can't be spending all day entertaining a very driven dog (obviously I would assume the early puppy stage would be massive disruption but we would try to time it for a quieter period for me work-wise).

We can and would put some time into training, ongoing as well as initial. My extended family are all terrified of dogs unless they're EXTREMELY well-behaved and sociable so if I ever want any of my family to visit again (hmmm, do I??) I need a dog that's trainable and trained!

Show cockers - off to read about them (while I should be working)

Are there some really good breeders out there?

I'm well off the whole 'mixed' breed idea too, I think we're all just really fixed on a pure spaniel.

It's the ears!!!

[ChateauMyself]

Check potential insurance companies - I wouldn’t be surprised if there are exclusions (or chunky excesses) for certain breeds/conditions.

That should alert you to what insurers think of the current state of certain U.K. breeds.

If you want a low energy breed, have you considered a Pointy? Greyhound / Whippet. Pack up small, sofa snoozing, fair weather walkers (generally).

[TeacupRex]

What about a show-type English Cocker spaniel? They are more chilled out than Springers or working Cockers, and don't suffer as many health issues as Cavs. Cavvies usually have wonderful, gentle temperaments but I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole due to fears of heart failure and syringomyelia. The Cavalier crossbreeds are not immune either - I recently saw a Cavapoo that had developed syringomyelia.

Cockers are usually a lot more healthy. I've got two and rarely ever need to go to the vet with them, and they are both health tested clear for Progressive Retinal Atrophy and Familial Nethropathy. Health testing, eye tests and hip scoring are important to have in any breed.

[bluebluezoo]

Yes- it’s the syringomelia i’d be concerned with in these breeds.

I will look into a cav/bichon - don't know any but will investigate

Please be aware as @PrettyPretty said crosses are very often puppy farmed or byb. It is extremely hard these days to find a reputable breeder of a “designer” cross with a portmanteau name.

Cross breeds won’t need KC papers, they aren’t regulated by anyone, so they don’t have health checks and as many litters can be bred as possible.

Also bear in mind that litters can be puppy farmed, then placed with a fake family to sell. Including “stunt mum” while genuine mum is on to the next litter.

Warning flags:

Puppies available immediately or “one unsold from a litter”
Not being given the third degree as to being a suitable owner.
Owning both parents
Having more than one breed/crossbreed for sale
Offering to bring the puppy to you.

Probably mire but can’t think atm.

[TheNavigator]

I had a lovely wee CKCS who lived to 14 only getting health problems in the last 12 months of his life, so very much age related. He did come from an excellent breeder (Turretbank in Comrie, near Crieff, Scotland) and was such a part of the family with his huge personality. I loved him so much and miss him every day, they are truly wonderful wee dogs. But a good breeder who breeds responsibly is a must.

[ScreamingValenta]

I have a 13 year old cavalier - he's had a slight heart murmur since he was 7, but it's only really in the last few months that he has started slowing down generally. His sight and hearing are still OK and he still enjoys his walks. We got him from a breeder who was very health-aware - the breeder has retired now, unfortunately.

[Grammar]

Our KCC we have been so lucky with, private breeder, though that's no guarantee of good health.
He's 13 now, he's got a grade 2-3 heart murmur ( mitral valve disease) he's on Vetmedin 1.25mg x4 day.
He gets as puppyish as they come, racing up and down the hall when we get back from somewhere. Yes, he's v deaf, but he's happy, not breathless, not suffering, slower, generally, but for a KCC not bad going.
The whole family, my 3 Docs and DH and I are absolutely dreading him getting ill, symptomatic, dying.
He has been the best thing we have ever done for the family, and he is a happy, contented dog too.
We adore him, but I am very alert to any suffering. We've been lucky.

[PrettyPretty]

When I see people with cavaliers and cavalier crosses I feel anxious on the owners behalf knowing the trauma we went through nursing our dog. They have a beautiful nature but too many health issues

[PrettyPretty]

Hi OP, I’m ashamed to say we didn’t get him from a reputable breeder. In retrospect it was a puppy farm although we were unaware of that at the time. We love our dog and he is very happy and well now but I wouldn’t wish what he went through on any animal.

[MattMagnolia]

Even if a responsible breeder has their dogs health -checked that is no guarantee that the puppies will be free of inherited diseases.
Many young puppies have innocent heart murmurs and MVD in Cavaliers appears later.
Breeds with truly awful health issues, like Pugs and Cavaliers, should not be bred or bought. It’s sad because both breeds have lovely natures.

[GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]

Mitral valve disease is incredibly widespread in CKCS - see here. The rate of syringomyelia is lower, but many cases go undiagnosed.

Have you considered checking out show-line cocker and springer spaniels? IME they are generally not as massively energetic as the field-bred ones - the lines diverged 50-odd years ago, and if you're not breeding for working ability, that's a lot of generations for it to quietly disappear, and for 'drive' - the enthusiasm to work - to reduce.

[Ffsnosexallowed]

My mum has had 3 ckc. 2 had heart problems and her current one has syringomyelia. Lovely dogs, but I'd never get one.

[Ylvamoon]

The Animal Health Trust AHT is the go to if you really want to find out more about genetic conditions. They have a list of breeds and what genetic screening is available.
If you go forward looking / buying a puppy make sure that all health tests are done and results are good.

[MarbleCake]

My cav was gorgeous ❤️ we were lucky that he had a big head though - they're prone to their brains outgrowing their skulls which is an incredibly painful cruel condition - we didn't know this until after we had got him.

The grooming is a challenge with cavs as well!

We now have a cross breed - she's pawesome! Generally better health than pedigrees from what I can gather.

[HepburnKNotA]

Pretty, I’m so sorry to hear you had such a tough time but what a lucky dog to have you on the case!!

Do you mind if I ask: when you bought him did the breeder assure you of his health? I’m just trying to work out whether breeders breed to different standards. I’ll happily research breeders til I’m blue in the face but I don’t know if they have varying levels of concern about the health issues with this breed or if a good reputable breeder is ‘as good as it gets’.

[PrettyPretty]

We have a cross cavalier who developed mitral valve disease. We paid £15k for him to have open heart surgery. We took out a loan to pay for it. Some people understand and some people say we are mad. It was just so difficult to see him struggling to breathe when he was just 6 years old that we had to make the decision to try and save him.

[ArkLover]

We have a cavalier King Charles and he is the best. Really good with kids, very loyal but a little piggy.
We were worried about the heart problems but all dogs have their issues so you kind of just have to bite the bullet.
We try to make sure that we keep his weight down as we see an awful lot of overweight cavaliers.
Our MIL treats ours like her first born grandson (all of her friends know him as her grandog) we have to keep her under control with the treats and can always tell he's been to hers for a sleepover (once a week ) as he puts on a couple of pounds.

[HepburnKNotA]

Thanks registeredvetnurse :( that’s very sad to hear and precisely what I want to avoid.

Do you happen to know if a really specialist breeder might be able to hugely reduce the risks?

[Registeredvetnurse]

Lovely breed but with all their problems I wouldn’t recommend one. I’ve seen many die prematurely from heart disease and it’s awful to see.
Even a crossbreed does not mean that it won’t inherit these problems.

[FirstTimeDogParent]

I am a bit anally retentive when I get an idea in my head