Growling Lab!!

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

We have, what I thought successfully rehomed a 10 month old lab and she has been here a few months!

She has been an absolute joy and fit in with our hectic and very outdoorsy lifestyle
so well, we have 3 girls and all though they are very enthusiastic to have the dog here they have all been taught to have respect and all are over 7 so not silly...

We have over the last few weeks had a few growling issues, the 1st we put down to my youngests fault as she had patted her while sleeping (all be it at out feet and not on her safe place/bed) we told her no and went over the doggy ground rules with the girls again.

However since then it's progressed and although never more than a soft growl not just when sleeping, once when my middle daughter came downstairs in the morning and once when the same daughter was emptying the dishwasher and dog was in the kitchen, I think hoping for a cheeky after dinner scrap. (not often but an occasional treat)

My husband and I are both united on how to deal with the issue and it's certainly not one softer on her than the other however he doesn't think it's as big of a deal as I do and I have came particularly anxious about it particularly as my middle child's bedroom is down stairs.

The advice is so mixed on how to deal with it from ignoring the dog/to a sharp no and time out and I could really do with some advice to nip it in the bud and getting back to enjoying owning and being around new pouch!!

[Hoppinggreen]

I know pack theory has been ( quite rightly) discredited but I do think that some dogs can have an opinion on their place in the household if that makes sense?
Our Goldie got a lot less bolshy when he was banned from the sofa and upstairs without an invitation. He could get quite growly when being told to get off the furniture so we simply banned him and now if he does get on he gets off again straight away when told to
He also reacts differently to DS ( youngest in the house). He doesn’t do what DS tells him as often or as quickly as he does with the rest of us and sometimes guards his things from DS ( slight growl if he has a chew for example) but not the rest of us. I always keep an eye on it and get DS to call him over rather than approach when he’s asleep for example whereas I know that dd can snuggle up to him and he’s fine with it. He has never been aggressive with DS but he certainly doesn’t respect him in the way he does rest of us
I think that because Labs and Retrievers have such a great reputation as soppy family dogs people forget that they are large powerful animals. I have had to peel children off my dog at the park but I doubt their parents would be so happy about them grabbing a breed that seen traditionally as less friendly such as a German Shepherd or a Rottie.
Ddog looks like a big teddy and has a very smiley looking face but his boundayshouid still be respected

[MudCity]

No particular other signs OP.

However, I agree with other posters regarding the possibility of her coming up to a season. That could be a factor,

I do remember as a puppy my Lab used to growl (low murmuring sound) when she didn’t want to do something (move off the sofa for example). It was as though she was answering back at us. We just maintained consistent boundaries and she was fine. She could be quite wilful and we needed to look at what we were doing, rather than her behaviour as consistency was the key.

Her inflammatory bowel symptoms started a bit later on, not helped by members of the family (who shall remain nameless) giving her scraps of human food which she was clearly sensitive to. Now she eats a special diet with no treats or snacks. No more growling.

It could be a range of things but eliminate the possible physical causes first.

Enjoy her. She sounds beautiful. They do go through an ‘adolescence’ though so please don’t worry if that submissive dog you met initially does turn into an obstinate pickle for a while, She may simply be finding her feet and testing out boundaries as they do. She’s sussed you out, is feeling more secure and may push a little bit just to see how you respond (and to figure out who is the soft touch of the family)....

[Laurel543]

Brilliant advice on here. And kudos to you OP for being so receptive and open to ideas. It is very obvious you care a lot about the dog.

I found this video really useful .

It shows how to 'ask' a dog if they want to be stroked and gives a good, clear explanation of how subtle the 'No' signs can be.

May be good to watch with your kids (depending on their ages?) I have shown it to my young nephews and they now take great pride in 'checking in' with my dog and are really pleased when she shows them that yes, she does want to be stroked. If not, they are happy to leave her be.

[FairfaxAikman]

Maybe try to get the girls to pay her on the chest and avoid her head in the meantime. Many dogs are headshy and some really don't like cuddles.

Others on the other hand....

As for the food, which brand is it and how quickly did you change?
You'd be surprised at what can irritate a dog's stomach - some can't take chicken, and yet chicken and rice is the first thing vets suggest for upset tummies.

[FairfaxAikman]

I suspect when you say submission you mean she's not overly boisterous?

But appeasement is generally fear-based in response to a perceived threat (even if you don't perceive it as a threat)
Rolling on back can be a positive thing but it can be appeasement - especially combined with the "sloping" behaviour.
Wagging tails can also be positive or negative- depends on the rest of the body language.

positively.com/dog-training/understanding-dogs/canine-body-language/

(Victoria Stillwells site is actually quite good - she used to adhere to pack theory but has completely turned around since)

I say all this with the caveat that I am not a professional - I'm just someone who was forced to reevaluate all I "knew" in the face of a situation not dissimilar to your own.
I found it really hard to admit I was wrong but learning has been the most amazing experience and everyone who knows her sees how different a dog she is five years on.

Don't give up on her - you will get there, even if the road seems hard.

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

Oh really @MudCity that's interesting, definitely think a vet check up will be on the cards too to check she is happy and healthy...did you have any other reasons to think she had the condition or was it just the growling?

Something else I should maybe mention is we have changed her food since she came do us to a more expensive brand with less fillers and rubbish in, we have also weaned her off her wet food (she was getting half in half) at the advice of the pet shop.

[MudCity]

My Lab did this, often if we stroked or petted her. Turned out she had an inflammatory bowel condition. She would have been in discomfort, poor girl. We just thought she was getting grumpy. We sought advice from a vet and changed her diet and she has been fine since. She can’t have any human food though otherwise the IBD will flare up.

Good luck and don’t worry. She sounds fabulous!

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

Right I'm getting somewhere...

Just had a brief look at appeasing signs and our dog does all of them, the yawning, licking, scratching etc...

I watched my daughter give her a snuggle on the floor last night and her face was quite near the dogs face, there was no tense body language but the dog yawned so I asked my daughter to come away from her face, I have came to see this as a "I'm not really sure how I feel or deal with this situation"

That however is the only time I have ever seen her show appeasing characteristics out of anything other than sheer excitement, happiness, it tends to be be when we tell her she is going for a walk or if we 1st greet her when we come in the door or down the stairs in the morning...

[Zaphodsotherhead]

Just chiming in to say that when my terrier bitch is in heat she is far more 'guardy' than at other times. Not with me, but with my other dog, she will guard food and generally be a bit more 'tetchy'.

But she's a terrier and they are back-chatty bastards at the best of times.

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

Ahh ok, can you explain the difference for me please.

And I'm sorry too for being narky, think I'm just really invested in getting this right and was feeling a bit swamped with all the varying advice online.

[FairfaxAikman]

Reading your last post it seems like it was appeasement behaviour rather than submission and the growling MAY be an escalation of that. But very hard to be sure without seeing it.

[FairfaxAikman]

I know this is labelled as the "ladder of aggression" but it's actually pretty handy for showing canine communication.
My girl rarely gets as far as stiffened body now because I learned to read her. We only get that far if out of control Dogs charge at her in the park).
I forgot to answer your question about seasons. Yes that can be A cause but may not be THE cause so I'd be wary of dismissing it as such or as the only cause.

Sorry if I came across as condescending earlier, I just get frustrated having seen too many good dogs (including DFs last two) ruined by this kind of thinking. One was a chronic resource guarder who he essentially taught to bite without growling due to punishment - of she hadn't died young or a rare condition I think he may have ended up putting her down rather than addressing it.

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

Thanks guys this is all awesome I will have a read through.

Funnily enough, when we 1st went to see her, the reason I was so happy to take her was her nature was very submissive to me and the girls...

She almost slopes in when you 1st come down in the morning or in the door, very waggy and excited but ears right back like she is going to get told off at any second,

The 1st thing she did when the girls came in was to roll on her back and lie flat so they could give her a good belly scratch, she is also very obedient with commands and will wait/stay/sit/gentle mouth etc which is why the growling now seems so out of character.

[loobybear]

We made the mistake of training using the pack/alpha dog theory when our rescue dog first started growling/reacting to things. It's one of my biggest regrets as it made things so much worse and really broke down our relationship with our dog.
When I started really reading up on dog behaviour I found out all the things that previous posters have said- that lack theory has long since been debunked and how growling and other body signals are a dog's way of communicating and telling you that they are unhappy with something.
After reading up we started using positive reward based training (and reward doesnt always mean food, also play and toys) which has massively improved her behaviour and our relationship. I read people like Ian Dunbar and Sophia Yin which really helped me to understand what my dog was trying to communicate and how to respond. Basically what Fairfax said could happen with one of her nervous dogs is what happened to our nervous dog when we used that kind of training, but using a positive approach enabled us to turn that around.

[FairfaxAikman]

I agree with @Altwoo pack theory makes perfect sense - if you are a human.

Problem is dogs aren't human and very much live in the moment. They also lack more complex emotion - really they just want to please you, because that tends to grant access to a resource (whether that's a treat, attention or whatever).

My DF has my dog's brother (same litter) and he trains the old fashioned way, and the difference between the Dogs trained by the differing methods definitely shows.
The boy's recall was horrid till he was about 5. DF was hospitalised and I had the boy with mine. I had to change his recall command completely but I've got it from 10% to about 80% in a couple of weeks before he went back. (Still patchy around some other dogs and if he wants privacy to crap).

Dogs live with their family which is why they do so well with humans, they want to be part of our family.

Get yourself a good liver cake recipe and use it to reinforce desired behaviour. Also keep in mind that a growl is important- you want your dog to growl before it bites but also worth noting that there are almost always other signals of discomfort that comes well before a growl eg ears back or stiffening of the body.

www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die/

https://apdt.com/pet-owners/choosing-a-trainer/dominance/

http://petprofessionalguild.com/DominanceTheoryPositionStatement

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid

http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance

http://avsabonline.org/resources/position-statements

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/positionstatements/CombineddPunishmentStatements.pdff_

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/positionnstatements/dominance_statement.pdf

http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878%2807%2900176-1/fulltext

http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878%2808%2900115-9/abstract

http://www.4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf

https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/the-truth-about-dominance/

[rubyroot]

I have to say I agree with fairfax- wolves (and I know dogs aren't wolves) are actually very cooperative animals and the idea of a leader of the pack has actually been disputed even with wolves

My dog knows I am number one and respects me. This has come over time and has been built on getting to know my dog and trying to understand when she communicates etc.

I think you need to try and understand/empathise and over time you will understand what the growls are about.

My dog was very headstrong and growled from a puppy. In the end, we realised it wasn't going away so rightly or wrongly we channelled the growls into play. She growls as a way of communicating and I think if we hadn't allowed her this and if we had made a big deal out of it we might have had an issue.
Eg. If we had challenged her the Cesar Milan way it could have made her aggressive.
For her it is part of communication and I am confident that she won't bite unless she is attacked or I am attacked.
Now, I am not saying that this is the case with your dog, our dog is very individual and each dog is different. It's a case of getting to know and understanding your dog.
My dog was never submissive in nature and if I had done the leader of the pack thing she would not have appreciated it. She is allowed on our sofa and sometimes on our bed.

However, she will not get on the sofa with wet feet- she knows that she has to be on her bed if wet feet and she will never get on our bed unless we invite her to. She stays on the floor and cries to ask and sometimes we have to invite her three times! She has decided this- not us. She has decided that she must be invited because she respects it is our space, this has arisen because we feed her, walk her and treat her well. But, we have trained her from day one.

[tabulahrasa]

“Does anyone else know if being in heat and can alter a dogs mood or behaviour?”

Yes it can, but, I’d be very wary about putting it down to that, especially the second two incidents as there’s no clear explanation as to why she was growling.

If it was just while she was disturbed from sleeping then possibly, as yes they can be grumpy in season, but growling at her coming downstairs and doing something nowhere near her in the kitchen are odd.

“I'm finding the advice out there very conflicting and subjective.”

It’s really not subjective, force free training and positive reinforcement is based on behavioural science and research.

[Altwoo]

Just to add that I used to work for an animal charity and I second everything @FairfaxAikman has said - pack theory is now out of date (I had no idea either!) and force free training is positive.

It’s great that you recognise her stress signs - that will help with mutual communication.

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

If you had any good links or reading @FairfaxAikman It would be much appreciated, I really do what to get to the bottom of it. She is such a lovely dog and I don't want it to get to the point where we have to put the girls 1st and rehome her!

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

Thanks @LilCamper that's really useful to know, I will check it out.

[FairfaxAikman]

I'm really not trying to be condescending.
Was one of these "reputable sites" Cesar Milan by any chance?
It really isn't subjective at all - just that some people choose to ignore the advances in research because it doesn't fit in with how they work. As I said before - if one of the world's leading scientists can admit his own research was fundamentally flawed, I cannot understand why so many people will agree with one of his papers but not the most recent.


You'd get better advice on the effectiveness of force free from the Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors - this is an Association of behaviourists. To be allowed to call yourself a behaviourist you MUST. Be educated to degree level in the subject. Anyone can call themselves a trainer, no qualifications needed - and this is where the problem lies. People don't like force free because it requires more effort on the trainers part, but ultimately it deals with the root of the problem rather than just suppressing the behaviour, which is what traditional lines of thinking tend to do.

My hobby brings me into contact with hundreds of dogs every week - many owned by various canine professionals from vet nurses to behaviourists. I used to believe in pack theory too but have been guided by those who have the most up to date knowledge and continue to adapt.
My youngest bitch is extremely nervous and in hindsight I can see that if I applied pack theory to her then I would have created a very damaged animal who would likely have been very reactive. As it is she trusts me completely, I can avoid her getting near the threshold of even a growl because I can read her better now and know when she is uncomfortable and address the situation l, rather than her behaviour. Over time this desensitises her to the uncomfortable situation.

Quite happy to give you a load of links (including academic stuff, rather than private trainers websites) backing this all up but I don't want to come across as patronising.

[LilCamper]

If she is insured providing there is no physical reason for this the vet can refer you to a behaviourist. Check your policy.

Unfortunately the dog training industry is unregulated, anyone can call themselves a trainer. Force free, science based training is definitely the way ahead.

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

Although I am open to advice, and clearly came on here to ask for such @FairfaxAikman I find your tone very condescending and if I'm honest just plain rrude!!...

I had a look at force free training of the back of your last post and unfortunately the 1st three reputable canine sites regarded it as a load of rubbish and here in lies my problem, I'm finding the advice out there very conflicting and subjective.

We are not flush so a behaviourist for a dog is not something we can consider however we will take her to the vet just to make sure there are no underlying health issues!

Does anyone else know if being in heat and can alter a dogs mood or behaviour?

[FairfaxAikman]

Please stop thinking in terms of pack - at best it's unhelpful and at worst it can be damaging.
Firstly wolf packs are family hierarchies
Secondly dogs are not wolves
Thirdly canine hierarchy is more fluid and they are more social opportunists than pack members
Fourthly you are not a dog and your dog knows this so even if pack theory was correct you don't figure in it. You are a resource provider.

Feeding last, no access to sofa etc is outdated. (Having labs I can attest to the fact that feeding first means you don't get bothered when you are eating).

Read "What ever happened to the term alpha dog?" By Dr David Mech. Pack theory was popularised by his research in the 70s. The above paper was written in 2009 and debunks his own research.

As I said before you need a proper force free trainer or a qualified behaviourist to observe what the triggers are. It's impossible to tell conclusively without seeing it first hand.

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

I have read about not punishing for growling and it makes sense and had it been that I thought her space was being compromised or one of my DC had done something to provoke her I probably wouldn't have given it a 2nd thought.

I do think a dog needs to know the pecking/pack order (didn't realise that was wrong) and we have read up on things like making sure we feed the girls 1st, dog isn't allowed on the sofa etc, my middle daughter seems to have been given the warning growl twice/more than my youngest (my eldest and myself and my husband not at all) and I don't know if it's something to do with the fact that her bedroom is downstairs and as the dog isn't allowed upstairs she somehow thinks middle DD is either somewhere lower in the pack order or that she is encroaching her space!

Funnily enough the 2nd time it happened she was opening the gate to come back downstairs. As I said in pp she has also done it when middle child was emptying the dishwasher and dog was in the kitchen DD said dog was sitting by her food bowl and growled at her, like I said I think she was probably doing it in "eh where's my scraps" type thing but I guess she could also have been protecting her food bowl...

Both times my husband has approached the situation and the dog has sloped off to its bed with her tail between her legs so she knows she is doing something that we are not happy about.