What to do with our lab?

[Ladyflip]

Our beautiful 4 year old dog is absolutely perfect except for two problems. He likes to run away and he won't come back. This is starting to cause a serious issue in that he has now got a taste for chasing the neighbour's sheep. Yesterday was a bit of a disaster in that he managed to slip his collar (which he will do at any opportunity) and chased them again. The neighbour was rightly furious, even though dog doesn't hurt them, he does just chase them. We had got to the point yesterday where the neighbour was wandering around with his gun trying to shoot him in front of my DC. I do know the law (I am a lawyer and DH is a farmer) so know he would be within his rights technically but my biggest concern is to try and stop this happening again. Obviously DC and I are deeply distressed by yesterday.

We are his third home and I believe that this is why he has been rehomed so many times. We have had him for a year and worked so hard on recall training but nothing seems to work. Sometimes we have to leave him loose in the garden because he won't come inor be caught. Despite being a Labrador, he doesn't seem motivated by treats, in that he would rather be in the garden than get a treat. It is a problem if anyone leaves the gate open (postman, delivery drivers) and even Ocado have him on their sheet as a "runner".

My in laws think we should have him destroyed, as rehoming him will pass the problem on to someone else. He wasn't well treated in his last home,and this could happen again as you cannot trust him if you take him out. Yesterday was not a one off, we have had incidents all year, and we are desperate for a solution. In all other ways he is the most wonderful dog, fantastic with the DC and with an adorable temperament. He just doesn't listen once he has gone. Only people who dont know him can catch him.
Please help!

[happygardening]

OP if your dog is persistently chasing your neighbours sheep I'm not surprised his behaviour was very poor, frankly I'm amazed he's not reported you to the police. The sheep are his livelihood, they are his annual income, although not pets and viewed in the same way as we view our pets this doesn't mean that he doesn't care about their welfare, so it's hardly surprising his behaviour is poor wouldn't yours be?

[moosemama]

Totally agree with daisydot. Steadiness/self-control is something that is too often overlooked in dog training, imho. Lack of recall is just a symptom of a bigger problem.

Simple things you can do at home, right from when they're tiny - such as sitting and waiting before being allowed into the garden, waiting to be told to eat their food, restraining themselves from leaping up at everyone that enters the room etc - can really help with this. Also teaching a retrieve where they have to sit and wait for a release while you throw the toy/ball. They all add up to teaching the dog to over-rule it's instinct to just crash around doing whatever it wants. Dog's aren't aware of consequences, they need us to teach them how not to get into trouble in the first place.

You also need to make sure that you don't only train at home. You need to proof every single behaviour you train in multiple locations with varying distractions. Dogs are situational learners, they don't generalise easily and that's why we need to ensure we teach everything adequately in as many places as possible, under controlled conditions, before we ever put our dogs in the situation where they might fail - especially when failing will mean their lives or the safety of other animals/people are at risk.

Basically you need them to learn to not just act on impulse, but to take their lead/guide from you. (By the way, that's not the same thing as 'being pack leader' it's all about having a strong, trusting relationship and leadership, not dominance.)

The OP's problem isn't stock chasing and lack of recall, it's a fundamental training issue that requires a back to basics approach with the help of a suitably qualified, behaviourist/trainer. If that isn't possible in the current situation, whilst simultaneously keeping the dog away from situations which could go badly wrong, then rehoming to a different situation, where the owners can manage his behaviour while implementing a ground-up training programme is the better option.

[Ladyflip]

Oh get lost happygardening. Your comments are not appreciated.

At no point have I defended my dog and I want to put things right for his sake. But when someone is pointing a gun at your children's pet dog IN FRONT OF YOUR CHILDREN whilst shouting EVERY swear word known to the English language (including c*), when you finally get hold of your dog he kicks it repeatedly so hard that the dog is howling in pain (and incidentally he bruises his foot), when there are people (more than one) trying to recover the dog and that therefore you are pointing your gun in the direction of people (again, in front of the children) and FINALLY when that gun is not legally licenced and given the speed with which he got it is certainly not legally stored then yes, I do believe I can say his behaviour was poor. And also, I suppose, why I can guarantee he won't report me to the police.

The sheep are not his livelihood, the second hand cars that he sells and stores all over his land making it look like a gypsy site are his livelihood. Twenty sheep do NOT an annual income make.

So yes, I KNOW what my dog did is wrong. If you have something useful to add about dog training I'm willing to hear it. Otherwise, DFOD.

[Ladyflip]

Thank you everyone who has made useful comments. A neighbour on the other side of us is a gun dog trainer and so we have had lots of help from her over the past year, which is why I probably haven't been as receptive to the comments regarding behaviourists etc as I feel we have already received a lot of advice. She has concluded that we probably won't change him now, but maybe we will still make some small improvements.

[BringMeSunshine2014]

Ladyflip Jesus christ the man has lost the plot. I'm surprised none of the other people there have reported him to the police - but I suppose they don't want to put your dog in their sight. Rock/hard place. I wouldn't want to risk your dog being PTS but on the other hand, I don't like the idea of this bloke having access to a gun.

How are your kids today? The poor little things must have been terrified :(

You have lots of training/dog help and I can't really add to that, only to say we found out late in life that our dog had always had a problem with her eyesight (not sure why it was never picked up by the vet?) and they said this could have contributed to her misbehaviour - things like that might be well worth ruling out as well. But it does sound like the others have it covered with 'stability' - though training that into your dog sounds very difficult at this stage.

I really really hope you find the solution

[PrimalLass]

Ladyflip - you must call the police if the farmer is waving a gun around. And do everything possible to make sure your dog stays off his land. He sounds unhinged.

My mum has a lab who is usually lazy but bolts at the smell of food. They have had to work very hard with her. Also concerns about her eyesight (she has a tendency to woof at people).

[SpicyBear]

It's great aim to retrain him, to teach him what I call self control/daisy calls steadiness and how to redirect his prey drive to appropriate targets. However, management is the first step. Long line and harness (long lines should NEVER be attached to collars or head collars due to risk of injury) is step number one.

Stopping the behaviour right now is a) going to keep him alive long enough for a training program and b) stop him rehearsing the behaviour. So it's not long line OR training.

[moosemama]

Some links to help the OP get kitted out:

Perfect Fit Harness

Ruffwear Webmaster Harness

I have bought several leads and longlines from these people and they've always been good quality, cheap and soft to hold, so won't shred your hands.

[ADishBestEatenCold]

I have very little to add to all the good advice you have had here. Never off lead when out of the garden, a harness and collar, and a longline.

As I say, very little to add, except (and this might have already been suggested) have you tried ignoring him? When he is safely in your garden I mean .

A friend of mine had a similar problem (lab bitch) and she totally dog proofed her garden, then set about ignoring her dog!
She used her garden with her DCs, doing all sorts of attractive-to-dog exciting things, like playing and eating and foraging in the undergrowth, but they didn't speak to the dog, call her or offer her anything.
If she approached them, they quietly turned their backs and carried on ignoring her.
When they went in and out, they tried to sneak, without the dog realising she was being left.
Towards the end of the day (teatime, I suppose) my friend opened the kitchen door, called 'dinner', put the dogs meal down in the usual place in the kitchen, then ignored the dog again who would eventually come in to eat (and the door would be closed).
They spoke to and played with the dog normally in the house, but didn't speak to or even acknowledge her the garden at all.
Rather unconventional, I know, but my friend was at the end of her tether. It worked! Within the first day the dog was very curious about their behavior and activities. Within a couple of days she was frantic to join in and, when they did start to include her, they did so in a small way to begin with ... conversationally almost.

Anyway, the whole thing became very manageable and much less frantic (though I don't think they could ever let her run off-lead on farmland, even when she was 'cured'), but I'm not really sure why it worked (my friend says she bored her dog into coming when called!!! !

Maybe worth a try.

[daisydotandgertie]

Ladyflip - what have you done to try and train her? And how good is your gundog trainer? It sounds as though you are resigned to the problem and that would be such a shame. It may well be that a different approach might help?

[SpicyBear]

Adish from what I understand Jim Greenwood uses similar methods. It makes a lot of sense to me, as dogs are social and animals. Also you are stripping away all the tremendous fun of being chased and given masses of attention!

[CQ]

Adish that's funny - and kind of what works with one of mine who won't come in from the garden when called. As soon as I shut the back door and go and do something else she comes trotting up and sits at the door with a 'me, me, me' face on! How is it possible to love and hate a dog at the same time - she drives me NUTS

[happygardening]

Ladyflip I apologise you didn't say in your initial post that the farmer was behaving that badly. It is unfortunately his right to shoot the dog, in front of your DC's, if necessary but I think you would be sensible to call the police if he carries on behaving this badly.
I really understand how stressful this is for everyone as my dog chased sheep. We knew the farmer well and were friends my dog only did it once but it put a huge strain on our relationship.

[TheFantasticMrsFox]

Some good advice here but also I think you need to consider if a life on a lead is manageable for you and your family and fair on your dog.
FWIW I have working gun dogs who would go positively stir crazy if never allowed off the lead (in fact the very idea of managing such a situation leaves me cold) The dog does not understand why it can't run as it has no concept of consequences.
I come from the camp of someone who had a dog (a lurcher incidentally) PTS after a sheep attack as I couldn't in all honesty have him spend 10 or so years on a lead- this was a dog who's greatest joy was just to run :(
Also despite any amount of training/ money you spend/ time you devote to the problem, you would be very irresponsible to ever allow the dog to be loose near livestock however impressive the results seem to be. Therefore you are really not in a much better situation than you are now, particularly if you live in an area of high livestock concentration. I'm also not sure if the posters who mention making the garden secure have actually ever coped with a dog who is desperate to escape?

As I said I'm sure it's not a popular view but I have dealt with all manner of dog problems over the years and stock worrying is in most cases a deal breaker for me- I'm so sorry you are going through this :(

[TheKitchenWitch]

Obviously I don't know what it's like where you live, OP, but would it not be possible to go a couple of times a week to somewhere where there is definitely no livestock to let dog run off-lead (or rather, with a long-line attached so you can always recall)? And then do long-line / on-lead walks the rest of the time?

I think that having some sort of lead on the dog while in the (secure) garden is also doable - long enough for him to move freely around but not actually get away. And it means you can always get him to come when you want/need to.

As I said earlier, I know a number of dogs who will be off at the merest hint of a scent, and they are walked on lead at all times. The husky also did bike rides (the husky running alongside the bike, not ON the bike, obviously! :D ), and the beagle gets to be off lead once a week at a training group.

[CQ]

Fantastic - I absolutely see your point, but my vet refused to put my dog down after the last incident (she killed my neighbour's cat - in our garden), despite me reciting the long list of misdemeanours.

I sat and cried in the surgery, saying that surely it is kinder to the dog to be quietly PTS with me there stroking her, rather than the alternative of being shot by a farmer or hauled away by a dog warden to be destroyed at the pound.

The vet recommended permanent on-lead, muzzle and yet more behaviourist sessions.

I am not coldhearted enough to trawl round other vets until I can find one who will do the deed. And my children would be broken hearted.

So we carry on in this less than perfect way. I am actually daydreaming about when she finally dies and how much more freedom I will have. And then she comes and puts her head on my lap and melts me with those big brown eyes. Gah!

[noddingoff]

Whatever you decide to do in the medium and long term, till you get it sorted please keep the dog securely tethered or locked in (not just closed in) when he's not out walking on a lead. Your neighbour is not just "technically" within his rights -morally and practically he's within his rights too. If a dog was repeatedly chasing our sheep and couldn't be called off, the gun would be out straight away and I wouldn't care if you were having the Queen over for a garden party. Rams will be going out with ewes soon (they'll be out already if your neighbour has early lambers) and the ewes will abort by the score if they're chased. This is also the time of year when people are selling finished lambs off grass, a good few store lambs, replacement breeding ewes etc. Your neighbour will not be too pleased if he has some picked out to sell and finds that your dog has run them through a barbed wire fence.
Although I suppose you know as this as your DH is a farmer. (really?)

[Floralnomad]

Sorry if its derailing the thread but CQ , why were you wanting the dog PTS if the cat was in your garden ?

[noddingoff]

Sorry,OP, posted without reading thread properly and reading your post about the horrible swearing, kicking your dog, pointing the gun in the direction of people and having shotgun w/o licence. Definitely not on.

I have no problem with him attempting to shoot the dog in front of the children though. You know that dogs worrying stock get shot- and the quicker the better, as the longer the chase, the more stress on the sheep- so it was your responsibility to send the children inside while you dealt with the problem, or to be certain that the dog didn't escape if you didn't want to risk the children seeing it shot.

Good luck with your problem, lots of good advice on here. gundogtrainingforum is a good website to join if you want recommendations from people in your area about gundog trainers who could help with steadiness.

[Ladyflip]

Nodding off, we live in the country. We were on a walk, and our dog slipped his collar. It was an accident, something I had taken a precaution against, by putting him on a lead. He ran over two or three fields from the lane to get to the sheep. How on earth could I "send the children inside"? We were over half a mile away from home!

And as for your sarcastic comment about whether DH is "really?" a farmer; does 173 dairy cows through the parlour yesterday afternoon and 400 acres of land persuade you of the truth of my claim?

I have repeatedly said that I know what the dog did is wrong. And actually, if nobody had been there trying to recover the dog, I would probably agree with you that it was fair to shoot him. Do you have children and/or a dog? I'm sorry, I really can't condone shooting a child's pet dog in front of them unless the dog was actually biting them. Dog was rounding them up into a corner of the field.

The sheep are not in lamb, nor is the ram out with them. I know that you are defending sheep farmers and that is an admirable aim. Usually I am the first to defend farmers. I think we will have to disagree in this instance.

[JadeJ123]

Your lucky he didn't shoot the dog, farmers round where I live take no chances and as soon as the dog chases they shoot, many people learnt this the hard way.
My American bulldog is a nightmare for chasing sheep & squirrels and birds which is why she's kept on a long lead and muzzled and never let off her lead.

[todayisnottheday]

My dog has a huge prey drive and also goes deaf once he's running. We've had to totally change our lives for him, he can't go to the stables with us or he'll chase horses and kill cats/chickens (tbf he's not caught anything yet so I don't know that but I'm pretty sure). He's nervous of other dogs and will go into attack mode (but runs if they so much as lift a lip at him) and seems to think small dogs are cats .

Things that have worked for us are breed specific training. He was a rescue but we got him at 10 weeks. We did all the usual socialising but he got attacked three times in a few weeks. The breed trainer was excellent. Starting agility was hair raising buy definitely worth it. Being around a variety of dogs but not interacting boosted his confidence.

Whistle training, using a whistle broke through his selective deafness much more than us shouting. Not reliable but at least it gives us something if he does run (in an emergency I've used it just as he went past someone helping us which gave them a few seconds to grab him - not great but it worked! )

Buying liver and heart from the butcher, I microwave it before we go out. It stinks and drips but I've not met a dog yet who wouldn't respond to it.

Buying a harness and never letting him off outside a secure area. Again sad for him but necessary in the end.

A friend has a lab like this, she ended up in all sorts of trouble with police, dog warden etc. For some unknown reason he just stopped. About 5yo he just lost interest. Now he's loose on her farm constantly. No gates at all just his understanding of the boundaries

[ffallada]

Ladyflip Just thought I would take a moment to say how great I think you are! taking on a rescue with problems is a difficult thing, not giving up on him even when the people around you are suggesting you should, makes you a wonderful person.

You and I are in the same position of having a brilliant dog who likes to chase sheep. Its not ideal (to say the least).

The brilliant thing is that you are trying to tackle the problem and taking steps to ensure your dog is safe.

Keep at it!

[Ladyflip]

Thanks ffallada. We have started using some of the ideas on this thread, and hopefully they will decrease the likelihood of him doing it again.

Good luck with your own problem hound too!

[noddingoff]

Ok I have a piece of useful advice. You said in your first post that he slipped his collar "which he will do at any opportunity". Buy a hole punch.