What to do with our lab?

[Ladyflip]

Our beautiful 4 year old dog is absolutely perfect except for two problems. He likes to run away and he won't come back. This is starting to cause a serious issue in that he has now got a taste for chasing the neighbour's sheep. Yesterday was a bit of a disaster in that he managed to slip his collar (which he will do at any opportunity) and chased them again. The neighbour was rightly furious, even though dog doesn't hurt them, he does just chase them. We had got to the point yesterday where the neighbour was wandering around with his gun trying to shoot him in front of my DC. I do know the law (I am a lawyer and DH is a farmer) so know he would be within his rights technically but my biggest concern is to try and stop this happening again. Obviously DC and I are deeply distressed by yesterday.

We are his third home and I believe that this is why he has been rehomed so many times. We have had him for a year and worked so hard on recall training but nothing seems to work. Sometimes we have to leave him loose in the garden because he won't come inor be caught. Despite being a Labrador, he doesn't seem motivated by treats, in that he would rather be in the garden than get a treat. It is a problem if anyone leaves the gate open (postman, delivery drivers) and even Ocado have him on their sheet as a "runner".

My in laws think we should have him destroyed, as rehoming him will pass the problem on to someone else. He wasn't well treated in his last home,and this could happen again as you cannot trust him if you take him out. Yesterday was not a one off, we have had incidents all year, and we are desperate for a solution. In all other ways he is the most wonderful dog, fantastic with the DC and with an adorable temperament. He just doesn't listen once he has gone. Only people who dont know him can catch him.
Please help!

[happygardening]

We had the same problem with an English Pointer many years ago. We lived at the time in a grade 1 listed house/garden so we couldn't fence the place in like Alcatraz and we were literally surrounded by 100 s of sheep. In the end we re homed him to an urban home, they lived in south London and they had miles of walks and no sheep. They long lined him initially but eventually he got into a routine and with no sheep to distract him settled down. I felt awful and a inadequate owner but he was going to get shot one day.

[FrontForward]

I was just going to say doesn't hurt them, just chases them is incorrect. Sheep are very traumatised by being chased. If a ewe is pregnant she will abort or the lamb will be born dead. Even if not pregnant you risk serious harm. Just because there is no blood does not mean harm is not done. I'm not at all surprised the farmer had his gun out

I'm another one voting for harness, long house lead and long line for walks. A behaviourist is also worth trying

[happygardening]

I too came from a farming background like your DH OP I know how important livestock is to a farmer and of course the impact on the sheep, it's also not good for neighbourly relations. I'm afraid it is just unacceptable to let your dog chase sheep.
We also has endless problems with people leaving gates open or opening my front door and letting the dog out it was so stressful for all of us, but you can't expect others to remember it's your dog and you are the one ultimately responsible for it. I know how awful you must feel I was devastated at the time because he was such a lovely dog apart from this problem.
Don't put him down talk to lab rescue we rehomed our pointer through a breed rescue. We kept in contact for a long time he was happy with his new owners and they adored him.

[kinkymouse]

Our lab came from a rescue and recall was awful as well as a number of other issues.

We had a trainer come and the first thing she advised was to tie a long washing line to his collar and let in trail lose behind him.

He had all the freedom on the house and garden and it didn't bother him at all. It meant on recall if he ignored us, which was often we could pick up the line and make him come to us. We then alternated with treats and squeaky toys. He's still not perfect with distraction but so much better.

[kinkymouse]

Oh, and he doesn't have the line on anymore.

[NCISaddict]

My Border Collie comes back from other dogs, deer, rabbits no problem. He has never seen sheep and as far as I'm concerned he never will. The only things he chases are fast moving bikes and fast joggers then neither high value treats or toys interest him at all, hence the longline and training not using treats.
It's hard work training him but I am determined, at the moment I do upwards of six hours of classes per week but he'll be well trained if it kills me.

[TheKitchenWitch]

Can I just jump in again to say how deeply impressed I am at how much effort so many of you put into dealing with difficulties and training your dogs?

It's comforting and inspiring when you have a problem with your dog and then you come on here and see a)you are not alone and b)more often than not, there's something you can do about it.

[CQ]

Agree totally TheKitchenWitch. It is good to see I'm not alone.

weaselwords my two can also be dog aggressive - but that's thankfully something that working with the behaviourist seems to have sorted.

I'm just back from a lovely walk - we went down by the river, loads of other dogs about, all off lead and wanting to be sociable. Happily my two greeted them all politely and even had a little scamper about with one of them, at the end of their extendable leads.

It's great to see we are making progress. I am full of renewed purpose to keep up with their training and not write them off.

Today I love them again

[firstposts]

If you're anywhere in wilts I can recommend a trainer who transformed my lab in a ridiculously short time.

Even if not let off lead it sounds as though your dog has a lovely life with you so better that than re-homing I think. Good luck.

[weaselwords]

Well done for cracking the dog aggression! You are definitely doing the right things.

[LetThereBeCupcakes]

As others have said - try and get a good behaviourist or trainer. Your vet should be able to refer you to a reputable behaviourist. Look for a trainer that does clicker training / reward based.

Just out of interest, what are you feeding DDog? It's amazing the different diet can make to dogs.

See if you can get hold of a book called "Bonding with your dog" by Victoria Schade. A lot of the case studies she uses focus on recall and she has some really interesting techniques.

Regarding the lack of interest in treats / toys etc - are you positive he understands the concept of learning? i.e. does he know that you give a command - he follows the command - he gets a reward? It took MONTHS for this to click for our rescue lab, but once it did training came on in leaps and bounds. Dogs need to learn how to learn, if that makes sense. Have you done lots of simple sits / downs / paws etc to reinforce the idea of learning?

What recall training have you done so far? Asking a dog to recall off of a chase is like asking a toddler just learning to talk to read the complete works of Sheakspeare. You need to start small. I always recommend starting with playing hide and seek in the hosue. One person holds the dog whilst the other person goes and hides with a handful of treats or a toy. The person hiding then excitedly calls the dog until he finds them, at which point lots of praise, toy, treat and so on. DCs usually love this. Once you've got that cracked (DDog races straight to the person as soon as they call) start working on longer recalls in the garden. Don't move on to quickly and reinforce the training by doing it in lots of different places.

In the meantime - good harness (If need be, DDog can wear a harness AND a collar, with a lead on each), and maybe fit a closer to your gate? If the postman is a culprit for leaving the gate open (as ours is) consider fitting a postbox to the outside to they don't have to come in at all.

Best of luck. It really does sound like you want the best for your DDog and hopefully you'll be able to help him.

[LetThereBeCupcakes]

Oh, Good Lord! SHAKESPEARE!

[happygardening]

My dog saw a trained registered dog behaviourist, we could obviously work on his recall but he couldn't guarantee he would always be safe around sheep. It depends I think on how close your sheep are and how good your fencing in the garden is or could be. I wouldn't guarantee my current dogs around sheep but we've since moved, there are no sheep in the immediate vicinity or for about 3/4 of a mile and if I"m out walking at the slightest hint there might be some I put them on their leads, I spend my whole time when walking looking out for them. They both have excellent recall but once they start chasing sheep I think most dogs become deaf to you.
Look at your individual situation, in our old house they were all round my garden, sometimes in the garden, they were all over the road because there was no fencing, it's just wasn't safe. It's better to re home a dog into a loving sheep free home than have him shot by a farmer. I might be wrong about this but I was told if your dog is known to chase sheep but hasn't actually caught of the farmer or he didn't have a gun on him when he saw him them the farmer can inform the police and they will insist the dog is put down.

[Ladyflip]

Sadly it's not just the sheep. We have had hair raising experiences with him and other animals so I don't think it would matter where he is particularly. He lived previously in a city and I understand that his desire to run off was the same but obviously more dangerous to him because of traffic etc., and so he just wasn't taken out at all.

He is absolutely deaf as soon as he is off the lead, it's like he looks at me, realises what he has done and just tanks off in the opposite direction. He has never come back voluntarily, won't be caught by anyone he knows is trying to catch him, but will happily run up to any random stranger to say hello. Living in the country, we are running out of "random strangers"!

Thank you all for your help and suggestions. We are going to try the long line and harness although DH is concerned he will hang himself on something. It's lucky for him we love him so much (dog that is, not DH of course!!!).

I don't want to go into full details here about the incident, nor do I defend Ddog's actions, and I am usually on the side of the farmer but the neighbour's behaviour was very poor and has terrified my DC who are only 5 and 7.

[NCISaddict]

He certainly won't hang himself if you use a harness and presumably he will be supervised at all times. You may have to accept that he will never be able to run completely off lead but a longline does give them a certain amount of freedom but under control.

Whereabouts are you based?

[daisydotandgertie]

Before I consigned a dog to a lifetime on lead I really would try a lab specific trainer and spend some time in a rabbit pen with him. He needs to learn steadiness. Tell us v roughly where you are OP.

[NCISaddict]

Definitely would suggest a good trainer before not letting him off the lead ever again but I meant it wouldn't be the end of the world if he was longlined for ever. At least it would be better than being shot for sheep worrying.

Had to google the rabbit pen, it looks a brilliant idea, I wonder if you could get one which had jogger/bikes in it , Ddog comes back from four legged critters easily but is the sworn enemy of any person who is fast moving hence him being on the longline until he's learnt some manners.

[mrslaughan]

Certainly try a animal behaviourist, but if you can't keep the dog safe, I really think you have to consider PTS. I grew up in a farming area, and if any farmer I knew got a whiff that a dog was worrying sheep it would be shot..... I think being sent over rainbow bridge calmly by the vet is better than being shot by a farmer, who probably won't get a clean shot.
I know I will probably be flamed, but I am just saying.

[moosemama]

If you aren't going to consider rehoming to a suburban home via breed rescue, I really would recommend finding a Lab specific trainer in the first instance - sounds like you need help across the board to teach him some self-control and improve your bond so that he wants to come back.

If you can't find a Lab trainer, I would highly recommend getting in touch with Jim Greenwood who doesn't specialise in Labs (his main focus is sighthounds, but as you can see from his website he does all breeds) but is a very experienced behaviourist/trainer, with tonnes of relevant countryside background/experience. He works with a lot of rescues to rehabilitate some really tough cases, does 1:1 behaviour and training but also runs Stock Training sessions on a regular basis and comes highly recommended. I recently attended one of his training workshops with my young Lurcher and it really changed the way I work with my lad for the better. Apparently it's best to contact him by text/mobile, as emails tend to pile up. He also has a FB page here.

[Itsnotforsale]

I had the exact same problem with our last dog and had to get him rehomed. Children were devastated. Four years later we have a new dog and are trying again but with a new tactic.
As our property can't be effectively fenced and the sheep are a law unto themselves...read...peer through our windows and rampage over the lane and gardens, I have this week constructed a 15 meter by 8 meter yard surrounding our back door, 1.2m high vetrical slats and posts with two gates.

It means I can open the back door and let the dog out at midnight without worrying that he will run for the hills in the pitch dark or chase inqusitive sheep who visit. He can also have this private yard all day with the back door open to continue his sentry duty and greet the postman. Also, the main yard gate can now be left open for deliveries. all ring front door bell.

I am still considering a really long line for the rest of the garden with the caribiner clip somebody else suggested which sounds great...keep posting folks - its seems a common problem in the countryside. Our guy is brilliant for commands in thehouse and with recall / treats - but at the sight of any deer / sheep / cattle he is deaf to the world.

[Itsnotforsale]

Also - ours has the same issue with being caught...he will go to strangers for a pet when on a complete bender, but hell for me to try and catch. He chased a farmer on a quad bike yesterday and I had to ask the farmer to pet him as it was the only way I had a chance to quickly grab his collar!

[NCISaddict]

I'm feeling a bit more positive about my delinquent hound reading these posts, he always comes back and doesn't chase for long. TBH I wouldn't mind if it was deer/squirrels etc, we have no sheep locally and he will never meet any if i have my way, it's just the fact that he chases people and I'm worried he will cause them to fall or snap at their heels. At least on his line he never gets the chance to chase and I can prevent him being able to disobey a recall. We are seeing results, he pauses and looks at me before trying to chase, but its a work in progress. His recall in the garden is much better too.

[daisydotandgertie]

It's interesting reading these posts.

Almost all the dogs have a problem with steadiness. They are unable to control themselves when they should be able to. Recall or lack of it isn't really the root of the problem.

To be realistic, once a dog has started to chase, not much in the world, other than a long piece of string, is going to stop it. It's gone to far at that point and all the calling in the the world will be utterly pointless, and worse, teaches your dog it is able to ignore your commands.

As I mentioned unthread, what the OPs dog needs to learn is steadiness. To learn not to chase, to learn the ability to control himself when faced with something fabulous to chase. Get that learned, and the failure to recall when chasing is irrelevant.

All Gundogs need to be steady. They need to be able to sit and ignore bunnies, sheep, joggers, dancing girls, whatever, while simultaneously marking fallen birds. And then, when they're sent, going to retrieve JUST the bird they've been sent for. And they need to be steady enough to stop to a whistle command on the way out, turn to their handler and take and act on directional signals too. That isn't a skill they just 'have' - it is learned. Hence the rabbit pen.

[NCISaddict]

Steadiness is definitely what my youngster needs to learn despite not being a gun dog. This is why we've removed the ability to ignore our commands by having a line on him all the time we are around (he has one on now)and also removed any chasing as play, no throwing toys for him etc. We will get there.

[Rikalaily]

Get a dogmatic headcollar which he won't be able to slip. Start recall training on a longline, labs are huge foodies, try livercake as a reward.