My puppy nips at me when overexcited

[BecauseIsaidS0]

Hello! I have a 13 week old pug who is an absolute delight. Now that he's got his vaccinations, I have started taking him out on a leash.

Being a puppy, he gets really excited when he sees people. I keep him close to me, but if someone asks if they can pet him, I let them do it, warning them beforehand that he gets rather excited and will try to climb up their legs and lick them

So far so good, except that a couple of times I have noticed him getting way too excited, a bit frantic in fact, so I've taken him in my arms and when I have done so, he's bitten me in the arm. Not nipping, but actual hard biting. He's also done this at home after some playing.

We are starting puppy training classes this week so of course I will ask the trainer, but since it's 6am and I'm insomniac I thought I'd ask here too.

[Lilcamper]

In Defence of Dogs by John Bradshaw is also a good one.

[needastrongone]

Eve - Are you looking for books regarding calming signals that dogs show? In this case, it's not available on Kindle, but Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas is short and excellent.

If you are looking for literature about positive training methods, then Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor is excellent and The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson too. Anything by Sarah Whitehead will be based in positive training methods too.

Just a few for starters.

[FuckyNell]

Aww. I love pugs!

[BecauseIsaidS0]

Here is the little monster. I tried clipping his nails this morning and he was having none of it, so I decided to take a million steps back and reward him with a treat when he lets me touch his paw. It will take forever, but I'd rather do that than force him to it.

[LtEveDallas]

Sorry I didn't come back MuttyNutty, fell asleep.

Look for the subtle head tilts, lip licks, yawning, polite circling away from other dogs for example

This is fascinating. I certainly see the Mutt do this, especially around the one dog that gets in her face all the time. They play well together, but when they first see each other the pup is just 'too much' for her. I'm going to watch it closely now.

It's Army Search Dogs that we see all the time, we aren't allowed near the Police Dogs, they'd be too dangerous. The search dogs are fab and so loyal to their handlers. We also have some 'hunting shooting fishing' dogs. They don't play, but join us on camp for walks and help to clear the woods.

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense. I'm really interested in this, would you recommend any references for me to use?

[FuckyNell]

Pugs are dead vicious!!

[Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme]

That's lovely. It's always nice to hear about new dog training methods. I've been out of the loop for ages but I like to read about it.

Anyway...Op I used to find that yelping sharply and turning my back and withdrawing got my dogs attention. He learnt that if he hurt me the fun stopped.

[Lilcamper]

Awesome stuff! The RAF display team at Crufts this year were force free :)

[muttynutty]

Only in the last few years Lil -(heavily involved with retraining the trainers!)

It was good to see the Police display in Crufts with the Police with truncheons and clickers hanging from their belts

[Lilcamper]

Mutty I am pleased to say that our Forces dogs, both protection and detection are trained using reward based methods. Personal knowledge and experience

[muttynutty]

It is hard to say without seeing the dogs but usually it is the bad mannered poorly social skilled dogs (for want of a better expression) that do it.

A dog that has good social skills with other dogs would not need to be so vocal or "shout" to get what they need.

Look for the subtle head tilts, lip licks, yawning, polite circling away from other dogs for example.

Rather than deferring to the dog that is scruffing, the other dogs will be wary and will try to prevent the dog from reacting like that but the scruffing dog will not be a liked or respected dog because of it in certain situations.

Do you work with forces or police dogs? The handlers are known to be (dont want to offend anyone here ) but quite outdated with their training methods eg dominance and aversive training. I do not support this type of training but dogs in forces situation have to be pretty Bomb proof (see what I did there) so they may cope better with the scruffing. Many dogs will fail the training as they can not cope with this method of training but they are then classed as not suitable for the work.

I am glad to see that positive training is now being introduced to the forces and Police dog albeit slowly. - The results will be amazing.

[LtEveDallas]

Thanks muttynutty, that's really interesting

What is it that I am seeing then? Just impolite behaviour, or something else?

I've definately seen the 'stopping a fight thing'. One of the Boarders has taken a shine to the MuttDog and he jumps in between her and the play fighting dogs (bit of unrequited love there).

[muttynutty]

Dogs tend to scruff the necks of other dogs in play. Some dogs also do so in excitement or just out of bad manners. As mentioned above Mum dogs do it to move the puppies from different locations. I think dogs scruff each other as they do not have thumbs.

If dogs do want another dog to stop a behaviour they will usually stand very very still with their head tilted away from the dog. If dogs separate a fight they will charge between the fighting dogs and stand still - they will not scruff the necks of the dogs.

It is now recognised that dogs clearly communicate differently with dogs and humans and this is part of the reason that dogs are so successful in integrating with humans.

What can happen with humans trying to imitate how dogs communicate with each others is that dogs think we are crazy as they realise we do not normally communicate that way. So scruff of the neck or any physical way of preventing behaviour just causes the dog stress and confusion.

It can work very successfully with some dogs as many uninformed trainers have found BUT there are a huge number of dogs that find this kind of training intimidating and it can have a negative affect on the dogs bond with their trainer or owner.

There is a major study at the moment which I am involved in which is looking at dogs that appear to be well behaved that have been trained in aversive methods. The early indication is that the dogs have a similar relationship with their owners as children that are abused. They work hard to try to change the mood of the abuser/trainer and offer more and more good behaviours. However the mental state of the dogs is very highly stressed and fearful.

So although scruffing dogs may appear successful it can stress the dog and actually cause more unwanted behaviours.

[LtEveDallas]

God, am I talking Farsi?

All I am asking (because you sounded so sure of yourself that I assumed you worked with dogs) is what you think the dogs are doing when they are pinning each other to the floor or grabbing each other by the neck? I don't mean when they are playing, I mean when the playing has got too rough.

I work (and play) with dogs every day, our own 'pack' is 12 dogs strong and we all bring them into work. We also exercise our dogs alongside the drug and bomb dogs that live and work with their trainers - it's them that taught me about the 'scruff' thing. So I see it all the time and it looks like the oldest dog, the one the others seem to defer to, does it when the play has got out of hand. She will also run forward and bark in the centre when they are chasing each other round the paddock, otherwise she ignores them.

When she isnt around I have seen my own dog do it to the pups (I say pups, they are all over 12 months now). They try to do it back to her and she properly snaps at them and they cower.

If you are a behaviourist, then I am very interested in what you think this behaviour is, if it isn't an older dog telling off youngsters in a family style group.

[Lilcamper]

It isn't my opinion, it isn't how I feel, it is scientific fact based on research and peer reviewed studies.

[LtEveDallas]

I don't know why you are getting snippy?

You said that it was wrong, and I accept that is how you feel, I haven't commented on that. But you also said that dogs don't do it to each other. I see it all the time, so I am simply asking what they are doing then, if not what I think?

I was asking your opinion. You were quick to have one before, why are you annoyed now? Aren't we just talking?

[Lilcamper]

This is the last time I am going to say it. Scruffing or pinning a dog is not appropriate, you are not a dog, you are a human and they know it.

[LtEveDallas]

Of course, but they also do it when one of the younger pups gets out of hand. You've never seen anything funnier than the 9 year old female cocker pinning down the 18 month Rottie

[Lilcamper]

In play. Not in punishment.

[LtEveDallas]

Heh, my ex husband may disagree with that statement

You said dogs don't do it to each other, what did you mean then because in our pack of mutts they are doing it to each other all the time?

[Lilcamper]

You are not a dog.

[LtEveDallas]

So what are they doing when they are grabbing each other by the neck and forcing one to the floor? What about when they are hanging on to the neck skin?

[Lilcamper]

Great that it worked for you, dogs don't do it to each other....they are also very aware that you are not another dog.

[SpicyPear]

Good to enlist your DH but you will need to proof it with all sorts of other people so they understand it applies to everyone not just him. Dogs don't generalise very well.

I'm not going to get involved in a generalised scruffing debate because it is not helpful to the OP. Regardless of your views on it generally, it is very definitely not advised with brachycephalic breeds because of the increased risk of proptosis.

[LtEveDallas]

Different dogs, different reactions. It worked with mine and she's not scared of me, it worked with my NDNs dog who was biting rather than nipping and drawing blood and he's not scared of me either. It's an old fashioned technique, yes, but it IS what dogs do to each other.

I see many working dogs picked up by their scruffs, now I wouldn't do that as I think their weight would cause injury, but the instant they are held they are submissive and quiet. It seems to work and I've always been told that is what happens in family groups.