Tips to getting antibiotics in a reactive dog?

[thwinka]

Hi, visited the vets yesterday and my boy is suspected of having inflamed tissues in his nose/throat? So the vet has put him on liquid antibiotics but we are finding it impossible to get him to take them? We have no hope of syringing them into his mouth as he is VERY reactive where anything to do with the vets is concerned and I believe would actually bite if we pushed to far and held him down to do this. I have tried putting it in milk, in chicken, in gravy, in a normal meal, etc but he wont take it any of it. He hasn't eaten now for over 24 hours and I am out of ideas!!

He is no better with tablets, but we can occasionally get one inside him. He will tolerate his worming tablet once every 3 months for example. But he has to have this medicine x2 daily. Vet says we could go back for an injection, but he is absolutely terrified and they pinned him to the floor last time he had to have an injection as he wouldn't let them near him. I found this quite upsetting tbh and don't want to put him through that again.

Any ideas would really be appreciated?? Thankyou

[tabulahrasa]

Mine isn't anxious...the specialist he sees is pretty sure that his aggression is medically caused, some medication worked for about a week and a half but he seemed to adjust to it after that and even with an increased dose he's carried on getting worse.


He currently reacts to anyone he doesn't know very well trying to touch him - even if he initiated it or it's the vet, other dogs, cats, cars, bikes, people walking with hoods up, or carrying bags, women in heels - there's no workable distance, if he can see them he's kicked off already.

Once he's kicked off there's no distracting him and he'll try to go through me to get to them, including trying to bite me, he's only managed to once, but that's because he's muzzled to go out. It's not as big an issue inside as obviously there's no strangers or cars wandering about, lol and he's kept away from anyone that comes in unless it's one of the very short list of people I know he's ok with.


It's massively stressful and tiring, frustrating, upsetting...pretty much think of a negative emotion and insert there, lol.

[mintchocchick]

We recently had to give our dog 9ml of a liquid medicine for three days - first day the element of surprise meant it went in back of throat though it took several attempts to get it all in, second day he wriggled, growled, squirmed his way out of the hold my mum had him in but DH managed by being really firm - third day, no chance and he bit DH when he tried so we gave up with the syringe as I thought he was too stressed and getting more reactive. But 9ml is so much to disguise in food so I went for scrambled egg with cheese grated on top.

Would that be worth trying?

I scrambled an egg, mixed half the egg with half the meds, grated cheese on bottom of bowl and on top and he ate the lot so I repeated. I was worried about wasting the final 9ml of meds if this didn't work but I think eggs and cheese is such a winning combination, he loved it enough to not mind the taste of the meds.

When I'm doing the Advocate, I spread honey or cheese or peanut butter onto a long thin rawhide chew and one person holds the chew so he stands and licks it while the other parts his hair and puts it on - works really well but you have to be quick as he will get upset if he sees the advocate stuff.

Hope you feel ok, it's horrid when you're trying to help and they just don't understand.

[Floralnomad]

How about mixing it with a little bit of yoghurt at the bottom of a yoghurt pot ,my dog loves licking out yoghurt pots ,mainly because he thinks if a person has been eating it its got to be good .if your dog is anything like mine you will have to pretend to eat out of the pot first!

[Greyhorses]

Can you muzzle him at home?

The most efficient way is to muzzle (fabric), restrain, use towel if necessary to wrap him like a cat and squirt into the side of the mouth with the muzzle holding the mouth closed so you can't get bitten then tilt head back until swallowed.

Works 99% of the time however I'm pretty quick and won't tolerate rubbish! Sometimes pinning a dog is the only way in a limited time without injury to ourselves or the client and unfortunately and we do get bitten often so I'm sure your vets know what they are doing, if you inject him at home you are likley to get bitten also so I can see why this isn't ok with them. Holding a dog by the scruff really dosent hurt them.

I hope you get sorted soon, to be honest he sounds bad to have bitten his own owner and I doubt there is much fun involved with him at the moment, your much more tolerant than I would be in this situation so don't beat yourself up too much!! Maybe speak to the vet on the phone and see if they have an alernative medication (most come in tablet/injectable/syrup) depending on which is easiest to give, maybe the vet thought this would be easier than tableting?
Good luck!

[DropDeadThread]

I really feel for you and your poor little dog thwinka :(

You've had lots of great suggestions but I might add a couple.

Even in the midst of a high tension situation such as the one you are in, never underestimate the power of going over basic training asas has already been suggested. This is calming, reassuring and confidence-building for you both. It helps to change the dog's underlying emotional state from one of fear to one of happy anticipation.

Re the medicine, do not feed your dog anything until the medicine has been given. A dog which isn't that hungry is much, much less likely to eat some food laced with meds than one which has been starved for a bit.

Pate is great because it stinks so it covers the smell of the drug better. Warm it a little in the microwave then mix the medicine through. You could try roasting a chicken or chicken pieces then using the juices to mix the medicine into. I agree that oily fish can be handy too. Chunky chorizo is really good for tablets but probably not so good for liquid, unless you were to chop it into bits and mix it through the pate or something? The other thing many dogs will enjoy is raw mince, rolled into small balls and hand fed. Always always always let the dog have some of whatever you're using first before trying to give the drugged food.

Basically you are looking for something really smelly and you must get the dog interested and confident by making sure they're hungry and they've tasted a bit first to get them excited.

Re the counter conditioning at the vets, don't give up. You are probably going too far too fast if the dog is reacting at the street. Take a hungry dog and lots of seriously good treats like hot dog or chicken and treat him before you get to the spot where he gets upset. Then go home and pat yourself on the back for not pushing it too far :) These things take a long, long time to deal with, up to 6 months of daily practice in some cases, and it can be disheartening if you are not getting anywhere. Lots and lots of repetition of easy training exercises at home, clicker training etc every single day will help you both. And call the behaviourist again and tell them you are struggling!

Well done for persevering. Our old boy is reactive and has bitten us both in the past. It does rock you a bit but try to remember that your dog is frightened and using the only means he has of trying to defend himself. Once this medication is out of the way things will relax a bit.

[Booboostoo]

Poor you! He does not sound like an easy dog! I have a similarly reactive dog and she is very hard work. She can most certainly turn on us when the stress gets too much, so you are not alone in this situation!

I am not a behaviourist but I would be very worried about forcing a reactive dog to take the medicine. I appreciate you are desperate to treat him but if you force him he will take the stress out in another way creating a new problem.

Is he at all hungry now? If yes, things are easier. Try the following. Do a tiny bit of training with him, something he knows well so sits or downs or whatever else. Then put the medicine in a syringe and then place the syringe on the floor far away from the dog but make a bit of a production ("oooh aaah what is this good stuff?!!"). As soon as he looks at the syringe click and treat. Move the syringe a bit closer, when he looks click and treat. Repeat. At times move the syringe further away from the dog, not always closer and closer, to make sure he doesn't progressively find the exercise more and more difficult. If he ever smells or touches the syringe in any way give a jackpot of treats. Do this for about 5 minutes and then put everything away. Leave it a couple of hours and try again. See how long it takes before you can touch the syringe to his mouth. Eventually he should present his mouth for the syringe without you touching him at all.

If he's not food motivated it's much more difficult. Maybe the best thing would be to meed the vet elsewhere for a quick injection.

I hope you find a solution.

[thwinka]

Thanks for the help guys. Believe it or not its good to speak to other owners who's dogs have bitten them He has spent all night last night and this morning following me around and trying to sit on my lap, jumping up for fuss. 95% of the time I love him to bits and he is so affectionate, but how can it not affect your relationship with your dog when you know that he is prepared to bite you?
Greyhorses Not sure what else I can do but put up with this part of him? I'm not tolerating his behaviour acceptingly! But lets be honest the only other options I have if I don't tolerate this part of him is for him to be PTS? I can't imagine ever doing that to any animal unless it was for medical reasons or his aggression was so extreme that it couldn't be controlled. Your right that it's not much fun, but I can understand why a vet would be wary about allowing injections out of their surgery
Yes, he will allow us to muzzle him, but only the basket type ones. Can't get fabric near him after the vet put one on him once.

mintchocchick Yep, I have snuck the advocate on him this morning whilst he was asleep. Put it in a syringe as you can squirt it on a hell of a lot quicker. We were allowing him to see/smell it before as advised by the behaviourist but to hell with that I think in future! It was over in 2 seconds and although he ran off and growled once he realised what I had done, he was soon over that and back on the settee after fuss.

Thankyou tabulahrasa , yes all those emotions come into play! That must be hard for him to be that reactive atm Is it due to meds he is having to take with you saying it is caused medically? Was he always like this for you? My pooch has become a lot better with dogs/people whilst out, but I can't allow strangers to touch him as he gets very panicky and air snappy. Tbh, I can cope with all that, and have learnt to accept that he will always be a very anxious dog towards people/dogs he doesn't know. Its the fact that he will bite me that I struggle to accept, but I guess you guys have all felt the same in the past.

dropdeadthread Thankyou for your kind words. I think I may go back to the behaviourist. Although I really can't imagine him ever being happy with the vets regardless of how much I try to counter condition him. He is absolutely terrified, beyond anything I have seen. The vets comment themselves that he is one of the worst they have come across. He was that scared last time that he wee'd himself on the consulting table and emptied his anal glands I will go back to the counter conditioning though and give it another try.

Lots of good ideas to try with diff food. I hadn't thought of a lot of them thankyou!! He did take it in the end last night with some sausage. Think he was that hungry after refusing food for 30 hours that he just gave up!!

[DropDeadThread]

thwinka I'm a vet and see lots of dogs like that. I like to think we're becoming much more behaviourally aware as a practice (sadly not as a profession) but the limiting factor for me is often the owners - I have seen incredible improvements in very fearful dogs when their owners have persevered, so don't give up and make sure your vets are on side (the nurses might be a better bet). Good luck.

[tabulahrasa]

The vet is pretty sure he's got back pain, to go with the leg pain he already had...which I must admit I was a bit dubious about until the medication she put him on worked even just temporarily.

He started about 2 months after he turned one and it's just got worse from there (he's 18 months) - he's got another assessment next week.

The problem is that nothing I do makes any difference, so I can train all I want to but it doesn't make any difference at all. He's a Rottie as well, so hard to control when he's busy reacting to a dog or whatever it is that's set him off this time, lol.

If we can't find something that will make a difference and get him a bit more trainable about the things he's reacting to then at some point I will have to give up and have him put to sleep.

The biting me, well that doesn't really upset me so much...I figure they're toddlers, only with no way of communicating to them about it, he's just lashing out. Dogs don't really view biting the same way we do, lol.

I'd just like to be able to walk him without having a wrestling match at some point.

[Booboostoo]

Have you tried any medication with him?

Obviously you need to talk to a vet who specialises in behavioural issues but:

• Adaptil collars and maybe even Zylkene tablets can help some stressy dogs
• as a second step Prozac is effective in some cases
• Selgian is another drug that can have good results.

My dog had an immediate improvement with Adaptil so the vet put her on Zylkene as well. The Prozac made no difference and now we're trialing Selgian.

[NuttyMuttie]

It does seem there are two problems going on here twinka and Tabulaharsa

Tabulaharsa I am extremely concerned that you feel nothing is working with your dog - I have worked with dogs for too many years to want to mention and only one dog had to be put down due to reactivity and that was due to a brain tumour. So there is hope - you need to get the correct support in place and the correct training. PM me if you want a named qualified behaviourist to help you.

twinka I agree about some behaviourists who come and give one two hour consultation and then only phone contact. For them they can see the solution but us being humans need reassurance that what we are doing is working and minor twitches to training regimes can make a huge difference. Again if you want a qualified behaviourist who can give support feel free to pm.

All the issues mentioned on this thread are bread and butter behaviours and simple positive training methods do and will work.

Reactive dogs are living on the edge, life to them is very very stressful. Studies have shown that adrenalin released by the dogs can still be in the dogs system up to 10 days later. So what happens with the reactive dog is they get stressed, then they get stressed again and then they get stressed again all in a few hours the adrenalin is stacking up and each stressful situation becomes bigger and bigger until the dog reacts to almost everything.

As owners we need to bring down the stress levels, so for some dogs that may be not going out on a walk for a day or two, just play in the garden. Some reactive dogs may love to chase a ball but the adrenalin rush from this can send them over the top and a onlead road walk may be more relaxing for them. Try for the next few weeks to bring down all the stressers that your dog experiences. You may find giving zylkene may help - it does for some dogs and will not harm.

With a reactive dog it is important to remember what they are good at - they may love cuddles, be fantastic in the house, love playing balls, be really affectionate to the dc's etc. Build on this.

Also do training which helps the reactivity but also allows you to see progress quickly - Training with a clicker gives dogs confidence, and is tiring so for a reactive dog win win.

Things to try:-

Teaching a hand touch - this is great and when out and about with a reactive dog can side track the dog from some situations.

Teaching the dog to build attention to you - again helps with reactivity out and about as you become more important to the dog
[ building attention]]

Reactive dogs can forget how to relax and be calm - this video shows you how to encourage and reward calmness in dogs again a great aid for reactive dogs


Teach a positive interrupter - if you dog is doing something that you do not want rather than shout at the dog give a positive interrupter and then reward your dog for doing something you have asked



There is loads more I can suggest but don't want to bore you all but if I can help anymore feel free to ask or pm.

Just remember your dogs are terrified stressed animals who are putting their trust in you. It also takes a very special person to own a reactive dog and you should be extremely proud of all you are doing to help your dog - in my eyes it makes you a star and if you dog can't give you I will.

[tabulahrasa]

NuttyMuttie - I've seen a behaviourist, she wasn't willing to work with him, lol...she deals mostly with fear aggression and she was fairly adamant that that is not what's going on with him. I got a referral to the behavioural specialist from my vet at the same time and she said to go there as the clinical behaviourist she would usually recommend is currently out of the country, plus she'd heard of the specialist and she comes highly recommended from lots of people. That's who I mean when I say vet, she's a behaviour and pain specialist.

What I mean is that because we haven't cracked what treatment is going to work, though the short time that painkillers helped is hopeful, training doesn't work because the original problem isn't resolved yet if you see what I mean.

He has elbow dysplasia - that meant he missed a huge chunk of secondary socialization (I did all the early puppy stuff with him) which is why I was seeing the original behaviourist, just to work with him on impulse control, better less enthusiastic greetings and recall, pretty standard stuff - Obedience classes weren't quite cutting it, but then he suddenly started acting aggressively.

He has a really abnormal gait at the back - he's had his hips and spine x-rayed twice, but they look fine, the specialist said his muscles aren't properly developed on his back (I couldn't have told you that, lol) and that she's pretty sure he has a nerve issue. So I don't know whether the plan is to try different medication or refer him to neurology...or something else entirely.

While the medication helped with his behaviour, he was also much perkier (which really shocked me because he's not exactly sedate anyway, lol) so it's looking very likely that he is in fact in pain...so if at some point I do have him PTS it won't purely be because of his behaviour - but, his behaviour is massively affecting the DC in that we really have to watch who comes in the house and when as he has to be kept away from so many people and only I can walk him...so days out can't happen and there's no way we can go on holiday or anything like that. So yep at some point I'm going to have to decide whether it's possible to keep doing this longterm.

Not yet though.

[thwinka]

Tabulahrasa That is really sad and must be heartbreaking for you Kind of puts my problems with my dog in perspective as it must be quite scary dealing with a Rottie that is so reactive. My dog is crossed with a Chihuahua. He is only Jack Russell sized so its not a problem controlling the situation if he does kick of iykwim. I really feel for you and your dog tbh as it must be extremely difficult and stressful. Its amazing what other owners take for granted with their dogs. Simple things such as being able to let them off lead to play with dogs and not having to scan the horizon every where you go to check for potential triggers

Hi Booboostoo Not sure if your second post is directed at me or Tabulahrasa? If me, then he has been on Zylkene yes. It did calm him down and we saw a big difference in his every day anxiety levels. Vet didn't want him on it though for longer than 3 months but it was long enough to do some counter conditioning with him and help 'break the cycle' a little? He is very food motivated and thankfully he has accepted the medication today. Big chunks of sausage with a fragment of liquid in each one seems to have won him over and he has given up the fight


I will speak to a professional again I think. Counter conditioning was helping with him, but I found it so confusing sometimes as we were having to condition with everything. People, dogs, bikes, cars you name it!! Your head is ready to explode by the end of it and all you want to do is take your dog a walk!! Its hard to know where to focus and a 2 hour session with a behaviourist, even though she was very good, doesn't really provide enough back up sadly. Thanks for the links Nutty :-)

[thwinka]

Oh, and thankyou once again for the support. You guys have all been great and I feel soooo much better now I really hope you find something that works for you and your Rottie Tabulahrasa as life must be very frustrating at times

[tabulahrasa]

It was scary to start with, now I'm just used to it mostly, lol...he doesn't get offlead unless he's in a secure locked space, he's muzzled outside - because it was so sudden and I had no real idea at the time why he had suddenly behaved like that, he was muzzle trained within days of the first incident, so he's never bitten anyone but me.

So mostly it's just doing stealth divebombs in a different direction before he spots something or holding him still until someone passes when I can't avoid them, which I can do, it's just not fun and if it's busy when I walk him it's really hard work.

Inside and on the bits of walks where he can't see anything he's taken against, he's actually lovely, just an affectionate goofball. Walks nicely on the lead (that took a while), knows all the basic commands and can do a whole load of tricks - he'd be great if we lived somewhere with no-one else around, lol. Well ok, I could do with less chewing, but you know, he's still young yet.

On the plus side - I don't get offlead dogs hassling him anymore. does a wee grim smile There's got to be a positive somewhere, lol.

[DropDeadThread]

Thwinka if zylkene helps then there is no good reason to stop after 3 months. It's a milk derivative and will not harm your dog at all. It isn't a prescription drug, just a food supplement, and the manufacturers say you can use it for 1-2 months or longer if required.

[DropDeadThread]

Are you in Scotland tabulahrasa? Just wondering if i know your behaviour/pain vet :)

[tabulahrasa]

I am - possibly, when I googled her (as you do) she came up everywhere, lol.

I've only seen her once - this has all happened within the last four months or so, after assessing him she gave me a behaviour plan in case it was a training issue, but he just did everything I asked except when it came to something that sets him off where nothing at all can distract him, I cut out loads of treats because he has some food intolerances that we haven't really explored yet, had him neutered and got the second lot of x-rays and then tried painkillers, which were almost miraculous for about a week and a half.

So now she's going to see him again.

[DropDeadThread]

SL? :)

She taught me acupuncture when I trained in it a few years ago. She's great on the pain side of things, no experience re behaviour (she actually taught it to me when I was a student but the vet undergrad curriculum included about an hour on behaviour in the whole five years so I can't remember enough to comment!). I hope you get somewhere soon, it's exhausting.

[tabulahrasa]

Yep - she seems great so far, so hopefully we'll make some progress soon.

When he first went on the painkillers, he was still a numpty and I'm still going to have to train him, but suddenly I could actually get his attention - which makes such a difference, so I'm hoping that will happen again with something.

It's also not nice to realize that he's in pain a lot of the time.

[NuttyMuttie]

If it is SL at Glasgow I would strongly advise you to transfer to Pippa Hutchison MSc CCAB.

If it is the same SL she did work at Mugford behavioural clinic but I thought it was as a vet not behavioural but I could easily be wrong. (neutering is very bad advice for a reactive dog - ok for medical reasons but not behavioural)

[tabulahrasa]

The neutering was a case of we reckoned he could do with being a bit less brave to be honest, lol, I was going to get him done anyway at some point and it made sense to do it at the same time as the x-rays...especially because that's the 4th time he's had to be knocked out. No-one was really expecting it to make any difference.

The reason he's seeing her rather than purely a behaviour person is because my vet, the behaviourist and herself all think it's a pain issue rather than just behaviour.

He definitely has an issue at his back end - how much of that is causing the behaviour I'll find out after we've got a handle on that I suppose.

But thanks for the reccomendation - I'll make a note of it.

[Booboostoo]

twinga, yes sorry, it was directed at you. I am surprised your vet suggested stoping the Zylkene. My vet said I could continue both Zylkene tablets and Adaptil collars for as long as I felt they helped. Anything that calms the dog sufficiently to give him a chance to concentrate on the training allows the training to be more effective at the end of the day so the good effects are magnified.

If he is food oriented get him in the habit of taking a bit of ham first thing in the morning and last thing at night. If you ever need to give medication or wormers, wrap them in the ham and he will probably eat it before he has time to think about it.

From my experience isolated sessions with a behaviourist are not enough. Ideally you need weekly training sessions. Is there no positive reinforcement training club near you that could help? Most are able to accommodate different types of dogs if given notice and are able to assess them in advance, although if the dog is very aggressive it is not always possible. Training you the owner to train the dog is really important and very difficult to do in one or two sessions.