Going to try and get referred to the child and family psychiatry unit - at the end of my tether

[lilibet]

What is a tether anyway??

I have no idea where to go with ds2 who is 12, we cannot get his behaviour to improve. He is so bloody miserable and I have started umpteen posts on here asking for advice about how to deal with him. He is already seeing a behavioural therapist and the school cousellour but we are making no progress with him.

I'm fed up of grounding him and denying him priveledges because neither are working. We can't ignore the bad behaviour and just reward the good because the bad is so bloody bad. Last night he threw something bloody heavy at me (and it hit) and then tore his wardrobe door off the hinges. He is once again grounded all weekend but we have things organised and it makes it difficult for us. It's ds's school fete and he is in the inter house football and we are going to watch which means that ds1 gets an afternoon out. Same on Sunday, we are at a funday for the church for it's 90th birthday and he has to come with us then.

Has anyone been referred to these and had a good result?

Or would anyone like to buy a 12 year old boy?

[fluppy]

Hi again. I replied to your last post about reward schedules. Sorry to hear how difficult things are for you at the moment. You must be exhausted.

You are right: you need a referral to your local child and family service. Your GP should be able to provide this.

From the professional point of view, I can reassure you that a lot of positive change often happens with these sorts of problems once you access the right sort of help. You can get a head start by keeping a private record of your son's behaviour for a week or so to bring with you to the first appointment (otherwise you will be asked to do this and bring it to the second meeting). It is most helpful if you can try also to identify what went immediately BEFORE the behaviour (where was he/everyone else, what was he/everyone else doing, what was said etc.) and also what happened immediately AFTER his behaviour (i.e. what were the consequences). This will really help the therapist to understand the nature of the behaviour, the frequency of the behaviour, possible triggers for the behaviour and some possible routes to helping you all. Be prepared to be asked to leave the room so that your son has a chance to talk alone. This is not a reflection of anyone's thoughts about your parenting but rather a chance for the therapist to get to know your son a little better and find out from him what he sees as the problems. If you feel there are things you would like to discuss that you do not wish to talk about in front of your son (marital strain, your own mood and coping, conflicting feelings about your son, for example) you should say this and you will be offered time alone while your son waits outside.

I do hope this works out for you. In the meantime, is there anyone who would be able to mind the boys to let you get away from everything for a while? Does he behave OK with his grandparents - could they help? You need a little time out for yourself. This is not just a selfish act: you need to maintain your own well-being in order to protect the well-bring of your family.

Best of luck.

[Tortington]

isn't it something you use to tie up.

i have a 12 year old boy already -sorry. no experiences - but thinking of you.

[lilibet]

Tie him up - now that would work!

2 interesting points -

he goes to his Dad's every other weekend so we don't do bad for time off. when he is there he has free reign, doesn't have to wash/clean his teeth, can play football in the lounge, no set bedtimes, wathc what they wnat on tv etc. but the other weekend he ran away from his Dads after a row over him kicking his little brother and he came home!!!, so I take heart form that!

And Dh is as you can gather from the above his stepdad and not once in all the recent trials and tribulations has he turned round and shouted the "you're not my dad" at him.

So I think we must be doing something right!!

[lilibet]

And fluppy - thanks for that, really useful!

Custy - did I really say that teenagers were easier on that thread!!

[elsmommy]

I haven't read any of your other posts but I just wanted to share this.

When my brother was 12 he turned into a little s**t!! He was really horrible. Mom and dad tried everything.

One day we got home from school and mom and dad had taken everything out of his room. Bed, furniture, curtains, everything!! And painted his walls black.

If he was well behaved for 2 days he got something back and if he wasn't something went.
And afer 6 months when he had everything back they decorated his room for him.

Its a bit like hard work but it worked for him. Hes a lovely 20 year old now

[Tortington]

elsmommy - i think your mum and dad are fab

get those paintbrushes out lilibet

[Melpomene]

Wouldn't some teenagers like having a black room? Maybe a pink room would be a better deterrent for a teenage boy...

[tiddlypom]

I think seeking help sounds like a good idea - you need to find out why he's so miserable. If he felt better, he'd probably behave better. Good luck!

[bambi06]

what about diet? did you see that programme where they changed the diets of some boys who were absolutely awful a..the language and attitude was dismal to say the least but after they got them to change the diet the changes were amazing , even the boys admitted they felt better and didnt want to go back to how they were.you wouldnt have believed that thay were the same kids..before they would throw furniture if they didnt get their own way and bad mouth there parents afterwards they were happily socialising with the family and chatting about things which they hadnt done before, the diet was ahuge life saver for these poor families

[lilibet]

Yes, diet is probably a big factor - bad mum moment coming up. When he was about 2 he was quite poorly - we thought he had leukemia. After we got him home from hospital his apetite was very very poor and we did completely the wrong thing. We gave him his favourite crappy food to at least get something down him. 10 years later and he still won't eat anything else. He will eat pizza, which we do sometimes do home made. eggs in any form but only hot, bacon, chicken, gammon, cod or haddock, apples, fruit juice and beans. Other than that you are down to crap - sausage, nuggets, waffles, etc.

He will not eat any veg, won't eat potatoes unless they are waffles, chips or some other such shape, won't eat yoghurt, cheese other than on a pizza, any cooked meat on a sandwich, I have tried the disguising food, tried bribery, tried balckmail, tried rewards. I have seen him vomit at a table a few years back because I 'forced' him to eat something. I have explained about how his diet will affect his health and behaviour. He will not eat anything else.

Fluppy, you started your post 'from a professional point of view', what do you do? I would just appreciate a few questions answering from a profesional point of view if you wouldn't mind?

[fluppy]

I'm a psychologist. Though this is not my area (I'm more of a 'neuro' person), but I did the compulsory 6 months in child and family while doing my clinical doctorate.

Sorry - I don't get to mumsnet particularly regularly (three boys and some other family commitments keep me quite busy), but happy to answer your queries as best I can when I get a chance.

What can I help with?

[potty1]

lilibet - I have a 2 ds's 16 & 13 and an 11 year old dd.

You have my sympathy, teens are tough but it does get better (may get worse before that, sorry ) - my eldest is now back from the wilderness....ds2 just heading out........

I think you need to hand him some responsibility. From your other thread for instance - forget about his room, it's his mess, his clothes under the bed, leave it. Being cheeky and shouting - take a deep breath and walk away. Pick your battles, otherwise everything is a battle.

How do you feel about leaving him in for one of the events at the weekend, maybe just an hour or so? Can you trust him by himself? Maybe it would do him good to think that you could.

[Pisces]

Lilibet, with absolute sincere apologies for hijacking your thread but I would like to ask Fluppy a question to get a point of view:

My son has been diagnosed as having Aspergers by a clinical consultant psychologist, a clinical consultant psychiatrist and STILL school do not accept this - They feel it is somthing else. What does a parent do in this situation????

[lilibet]

I'm seeing the docotor tonight to ask to be referred and am not looking forward to it - I feel that it's like sitting there and saying that I am a failure.

We have been taking your advice on board about what prompts it and what he is like afterwards. We have had a very mixed weekend - he really lost his temper when my mum was there yesterday and she was very frightnened, she's 78. I was furious with him ,he refused to apolgise about it to her (he threw his school bag in her direction with all the force he could muster, it did miss) and when i tried to explain to him about how much he had upset and frightened her, he stood there with his 'face' on saying in the tone of voice we know and love "so?". So I slapped his face. Not the best or wiset thing to do in the circumstances I appreciate, but this is my mum and she is an old lady.

What I wanted to ask you about is lsightly related to this, on Friday, we discovered that he had been lying to us about some school work, dh went upstairs to talk to him about it, he was going into the shower at the time and he turned the shower onto dh. Dh pushed him out of the way and turned the shower off, this episode is now being related by ds as how he had had his head smashed into a tiled wall. In the past he has accused dh of bursting his nose, dd (16) was there and witnessed the event and says that nothing happened. ds just made it up. It is really worrying us that this will be investigated and beleived and we don't know where it will lead.

Within an hour or so of any of these thing happening, ds will come and sit with us as if nothing has happend, and will chat away to dh about football, or something else and will just chat and carry on as normal. I feel so sad for him, he is still my little boy and he is so bloody miserable and is making the rest of us bloody miserable too.

[Pisces]

Lilibet, my son was so very, very unhappy. His behaviour was totally out of control. He's automatic response to things going wrong was "SO". He had no real empathy, he could not understand what had hurt or upset people. He could also NOT tell us what was upsetting him - he just used to lash out. We went to CAMHS - he has now been diagnosed with Aspergers. He is on anti-depressants which have had a remarkable effect. His behaviour is improving, he is more responsive, we are getting our son back all the time now. I had never heard of Aspergers until now and now I have had chance to research it on the internet, so much makes sense. It is a shame it has taken 11 years for this to be diagnosed.

[lilibet]

The doctor has refused to refer us as they are a psychiatric centre and ds doesn't have a psychiatric problem. Child and Family Centre don't see parents who just don't know how to be parents. He has agreed to see us himslef and arranged a double appointment for next week, but I don't hold out much hope as he totally trased some of the things that we do with ds in front of him.

[tiddlypom]

I don't think your doctor is being very helpful at all, lilibet Surely what you need is skilled, supportive help from a properly trained therapist, not a general practitioner having a go at telling you what to do and setting you against each other.

I think unskilled people just make things worse at a time when you're at your most vulnerable.

In your first post, you mentioned the church, and I wondered if your vicar/minister could help at all? It's part of their remit to cover pastoral care and they might know what's good in your local area. For example, in London there's an organisation called the Westminster Pastoral Foundation which has a good reputation.

I hope Fluppy comes back to this thread with some more advice. I feel very cross that your GP has blocked you like this. Surely the question of what's 'psychiatric' and what isn't is very debatable. Hard to see what a GP can hope to achieve, even in a double appointment.

Not sure how much this helps, but I hope other people can make suggestions.

[mandyc66]

can I just say it should pass!!! My ds1 was awful at 12. grumpy moody grunted insted of talked etc etc. He is now 14 and lovely again, the boy that i was proud of has come back!! We have a few lapses when he slips into 'Kevin' mode but on the whole is great.....dd is now 12..................................aaaaahhhhhhhh

[tallulah]

We had family therapy when the children were very young because I couldn't cope with DD. Can't say it really helped & it backfired later when DS2 had problems because they thought I was just a mother who couldn't cope, rather than there being genuine problems.

My youngest is 13 & being a little sh*t. He has always been the easiest of the four but for a dodgy spell at 6ish. Now we have shouting all day long; tantrums that blow up at a moments notice & end up with him in tears; & him being deliberately awkward & winding people up. It's infuriating, but I know it will pass because the other three have come out the other side. It's puberty and hormones.

Think you have to grit your teeth and hang on in there. he's testing boundaries so you have to be very firm and very consistent. Easier said than done, I know.

[fluppy]

Sorry all - up to my eyes at the moment.

Have to be brief, but lilibet let me reassure you that this is NOT a matter of 'parents who don't know how to be parents'. Of course we can all slip into bad patterns when life gets tough (I know I do) but your situation is not about how one copes with the usual teenage angst. The fact that you are trying so hard to find a way through all this for your son and your family shows exactly how motivated you are as a parent. Nobody is suggesting your son has a psychiatric problem at this stage, but these behavioural difficulties are EXACTLY the sort of thing that a child and family service would help with. In fact, during my training placement I saw several families struggling with their children's challenging behaviour. While I am sure the motives are good, I share your scepticism about your GP. I think you should look into self-referral. Can you contact the service directly and enquire about their policy on this? Ask to speak to a team member rather than the receptionist, and make them aware that his behaviour has become physically threatening and be specific about your concerns about his mood (are you saying he is depressed? Do you think he is self-harming?).

Lilibet, my sympathies are with you. It is hard enough to handle your son's behaviour without feeling that your attempts to get help are being obstructed. Make sure you make time to look after YOU.

Pisces - your clinical psych should be happy to offer a one-off training session at your son's school. In my experience, schools often welcome this as it counts as INSET and is free (!!). The psych will be able to give good advice to staff on how to manage autistic spectrum behaviour in the classroom and playground and how to help your son achive his full academic potential. Even if your psych can't come, they might be able to send a trainee clinical psych.

If you have no joy (CAMHS is struggling with its waiting lists at the moment) ask your psych for recommended reading. There are some very helpful leaflets for parents and for teachers re Aspergers. And there is a fair bit of evidence for good outcomes using something called 'social skills training' where you essentially teach your son the unseeen social rules that he might not be able to fathom at the moment.

Hope this is of some help to you both. Sorry to rush off again!

[fluppy]

Oh dear - I seem to have killed the thread...

Hope you are OK lilibet.

[fluppy]

bump...

[lilibet]

Hello!!

Yes we are fine and was going to resurrect this today as we are at the GP's tomorrow and was going to ask for a bit of advice as to what to say to him. He has given us a double appointment and in the past has been helpful with my problems so am prepared to give him a second chance.

I have been trying to think what ds's main problem is and I think that it's probably his lying (phonecall from school last week asking why they haven't had a letter telling them that we are on holiday when it's parent's eveing - simple answer - we're not on holiday!). Everything seems to stem from this, he lies about homework, about school work, about things at home. Because he lies about his school work, he is falling behind, so I get school on my back, because he lies about things at home, he gets in troube, gets grounded, he gets frustrated and bored and so gets into trouble.

Some lies are quite inventive, (see above) and he has been doing this for years, when he was about 6 he went into school and told them that his Dad had died that weekend! We can't get to the bottom of why he keeps doing it and hopefully this may help us.

[fluppy]

Hi. Glad you're OK.

As always am rushing (sorry). Will type as fast as poss so please ignore typos!

I'd be asking myself the same question asyou: what does he gain from the lying? Does it get him care and attention (saying your relative is sick/has died is a classic for this)? Does it cover something up (could he be having problems coping with the demands of school - what is his attentional capability like, can he read well, etc.)? Is it his only way of managing other people's expectations (usually see this if they are struggling at school, or e.g. where there is strong family pressure to do well in the family business or the sport one's father played professionally etc.)? If you were seeing me, I would want to ask you about your sense of his perspective on his own behaviour - he may do the 'why should I care' thing like all teens, but do you think he is capable of remorse, and does he reflect on his actions do you think?

I would ask you about the sorts of behaviour he displays (this is where the written record will help) and how often, and what tends to happen immeidately before and after the incidents. I would be interested in getting the history of this as well - did it start suddenly (when?what happened around that time - hormonal, loss of relative, school pressure, birth of sibling, family break-up, age-related social changes etc.etc?) or gradually? I would ask about threatening acts towards other people and also animals. I would want a good idea of his current mood and also to know whether this fluctuates and how often/in what circumstances. I would want to know if he could be using alcohol/drugs (though I am not suggesting to you that this will be the case - esp. since it sounds like a much longer-term problem).

I think if I were you I would ask to speak without your son there for a couple of minutes, and try to convey to your GP your concerns about the nature and extent of the lying (I would tell him about the false accusations against your dh as well) and the physical threats and your son's mood. I would be clear that he is academically underperforming. It would be important to explain why you are sure that this extends beyond the normal scope of 'typical teenager'. There are a couple of things that your GP should want to rule out, and he may want to reconsider referring you. I hope he can offer you more than last time.

Good luck. Sorry - got to fly!

[turnupthebass]

Hi quick update (I'm Lilibet's DH by the way).
We were with the GP for a good half hour this evening and though I admit being sceptical about what was said by him last week, I was actually very impressed today.

He listened, was very keen for DS to have his own say, really tried his best to get him to open up by talking about the things he likes - football and playstation and books etc.

He did get him to acknowledge that his lying, the homework/school problems etc are things that only he himself can change - and even got him to promise to do his best to change these things.
He told him it would be hard - particularly the lying - as it has become second nature. But really reinforced that he is capable of doing it.
He even had DS laughing before we left as he said if the promises are a success then he wants DS to tell everyone it was because we went to see him!

Having gone in very sceptical I left feeling we had made very big steps.

He also asked about the school counselling and was very surprised we had been told it was confidential. Told us that as a minor (12yo) we have the right at least to a summary of the methods / subjects they are covering. Has advised us to get the counsellor to contact him - along the lines of 'I don't want to duplicate treatment / ideas as that is wasting DS's time'.

How hard it will be for him to keep the promises has already been tested tonight - I was helping him tidy his room and found his brothers Gameboy, several games, and an old ring of mine in its box all hidden under his bed in a computer game box. I asked why had he took them and his instinct (as always) was to say he swears he had no idea why they were there. I stayed calm, told him to remember what the GP had said about it being very hard to get out of the 'lying rut'. Told him he wasnt in trouble and that he needs to start admitting things and not lying. He admitted it straight away I said it and boy is that progress.

a good night at last!!