Arguing about politics

[lizzieoak]

My lovely ds is driving me a bit bonkers. Which is his job at 17. However ... I’m wondering to what extent it’s my job to challenge some of his wilder hyperbole?

He’s intensely political. He had a gf who was a Marxist (& so were her parents) & he idolized all of them. She went away to uni but they are back in touch and his rhetoric has ramped up again.

For the most part I don’t rise to it. He wants to talk at me all the time about political issues, including issues where he knows I’ll disagree w him. Suffice it to say I’m more old school left wing and don’t see things as black and white as he does and don’t swallow the party line on anything really. My degree is in political science and I worked in a political environment for a few years and ... well, I’m older so my views are maybe more nuanced.

He’s very well-informed, which is great. But he comes out w utter bolllocks, like this morning he told me that the Republicans in the US had created a slice of people too poor for Obamacare and not poor enough for Medicaid on purpose to “literally” murder poor people.

I pointed out that rich people require poor people so he went off and had a think about that.

Thing is - I hate arguing politics, I don’t think it works for the most part, and I don’t want to fall out with him. He has good intentions, he’s just got that 17 year old lack of nuance. But some of the stuff he comes out w is ridiculous.

Is questioning him on his more loony statements a good middle road between ignoring him and engaging in useless arguments with him? My exh never outgrew that inflammatory black and white view of things so I worry a bit for ds as I don’t think railing against the big stuff (capitalism!) while not doing any good on a local level is a route to happiness. Nor do I think coming across as a windbag who knows best is going to attract good people.

[claraschu]

I think your son sounds absolutely wonderful. Young people are often idealistic and a bit extreme in their views; this can be an amazing thing, giving them the courage and energy to make real changes happen.

My son has been devoting himself passionately to a very idealistic endeavour, and it is actually about to happen (bringing a labour union to a very exploitative business in the US). I have been convinced he would never succeed, but his youthful courage and single-mindedness is about to pay off.

At the moment, I feel very moved by the annoying and unrealistic attitudes which make impossible things happen.

[lizzieoak]

Nooka, it is a good way to connect. Just I want to chat about a variety of topics. He’s a bit more relaxed the last couple of weeks so has been talking to me about a wider variety of topics which is nice.

That’s too bad your dd gets stressed about these things. My dd was the same at that age, but has mellowed now she’s in her 20’s. Ds mostly holds onto the concept that I’m a decent person, but does enjoy arguing a lot more than I do, so it can be challenging. I could certainly have worse problems with a teenager though!

[nooka]

Oh I know, and I understand where it comes from. dd just found it hard to relate to. The class had a 'do a presentation' type project last year on important WWI battles and one of the questions they had to address was something like what was the importance of the battle. dd focused on how completely pointless it was and showed a clip of Blackadder goes Forth. She told me that all the other groups read their battles very differently.

Anyway, back to managing too many political conversations at home :) My dh tends to opt out a bit unless they are more on the history than the feelings. He also worries as dd can get very upset which affects her sleeping so he tends to shut the discussions down more than me. ds and I get on well enough that I can tell him 'enough!' he can be very black and white so we've given him books and pointed him toward resources that present different points of view. Luckily he's stopped using debating tricks on dd now as that really really wound her up as she felt that he'd do anything to win (which is completely true).

Fundamentally though I think it's a good way to connect so I am happy to join in most of the time.

[lizzieoak]

I think part of the patriotism of the Canadian delivery is that it’s considered that Ypres was “birth of a nation”. Not that I agree, but it’s commonly accepted mythology.

Squeezer, I think it’s a rare adult who doesn’t think (particularly after a degree in a subject and working in a subject area) they know a tad more than a 17 year old. He’s smarter than I am, but doesn’t have the life experience nor the degree I have.

Some of his teachers are great, but some are not very strong in their subject areas.

[Thesqueezermustghost]

I think he sounds great, but then as a Marxist I would. We don't all get more 'nuanced' as we age, you know. Indeed, you sound somewhat patronising, hope he gives you more hell.

[nooka]

I think a lot depends on the individual teacher. We've been a bit disappointed with dd's Vancouver school, seems to be much more traditional than the previous school. Lots of exams and less student autonomy. The old school district didn't run any AP courses but had some dual credit courses with the local university in Grade 12 (nice introduction to university and also paid for by the school district which was nice). New school has a 'mini' school which means that dd's grade 12 classes have grade 11s in them. She's not impressed, thinks the mini students are a bit cocky.

dd has studied Japanese internment but the Grade 11/12 syllabus seems very European centred, mostly the Western front in WWI and II. It was interesting to see the difference in focus on WWI. dd is quite a pacifist and has picked up what I think of as a pretty mainstream English view that WWI was a terrible, unnecessary fiasco. She found the patriotism of the Canadian view very strange.

[lizzieoak]

Yes, Virginia. I think the teacher has chosen To the Lighthouse.

Maybe it is different in smaller towns? My son is in an AP program so they go deeper than the regular curriculum.

All his teachers have been very big on First Nations stuff (politics and history).

I’m surprised though at the stuff they leave out - no Winnipeg General Strike, no Japanese Canadian interment, no Vancouver Island Coal Wars etc.

[nooka]

Virginia Woolf? ds had a great Meti socials teacher who was passionate about First Nations history, and dd currently has a history teacher who is a bit stuck in the Cold War but otherwise I've not got much of a feeling of political belief at all really. We've just moved from the Interior to Vancouver though, it might be different in the city perhaps.

[Phillipa12]

My mother told my sister once at the dinner table that "there is one thing you should never enter into a discussion about and thats politics, it always ends in an arguement. Just agree to disagree and say no more" she was right!

[lizzieoak]

I think I’d find it easier if there was another parent for him to bounce off. Generally speaking I enjoy his enthusiasm, just sometimes I want to read a page w/o interruption or watch Corrie till the ad break without hearing about Putin!

Certainly on the environment his education (also in B.C.) has been very politicized. Some of his teachers at his current school are very political. Some very left wing but some not. He gets annoyed that his history teacher accepted American hegemony for example. Politics comes up a lot in social studies, history, law, even English. Right now they’re reading Woolf and his teacher adores Woolf and he’s surprised they don’t talk about Woolf from a class viewpoint (I agree w him there, I’m not a Woolf fan).

[nooka]

You are probably right about that lizzie. ds has just started university and is getting a lot more stimulation now (and being worked far harder too). We also only see him at the weekend so less time for arguing!

[nooka]

I don't know, I'm also in Canada (BC) and while the teachers unions are a bit bonkers I've never got the impression that my kids teachers were political at all, and generally I think people are incredibly apathetic about both provincial and federal politics.

My children are both politically interested and passionate in their beliefs. I was an argumentative bugger at their ages so I'm fairly tolerant, teenagers tend toward black and white thinking, it's a function of knowledge without experience I think. My ds is more of an academic thinker, keen on debate and winning arguments. A bit annoying at times but quite fun really. dd is much more emotionally connected to her passions so tends to get upset about injustices. The only big fireworks here are when ds and dd argue with each other, or if any of us start on gender/identity politics where I'm a big old terf in their eyes. So we have agreed to disagree there.

[lizzieoak]

Based on me, and his sister, I think he’ll get better. I remember arguing with my dad about politics at the same age and being convinced I was the font of all knowledge :D

He’s still in high school and isn’t getting great instruction and doesn’t have a lot of people who are as into it as he is. I think uni will temper him a bit - and age will wear him down!

[Timetogetup0630]

Both my kids, 17 and 19 are studying politics. But they dont bang on about it all the time. 17 year old can be quite opinionated . But he is in the school debating team and has learned to listen and deconstruct a counter argument, which is useful.

At this age they are still developing their social skills. They can also be very full of talk but no action. Hopefully your DS will grow out of this...or he could grow up to be a dogmatic, self opinionated bore. Sorry to say this. Hope it's the former.

[lizzieoak]

I’ve had a quick look at Hayek and I don’t think either of us would be too keen. If Thatcher liked him & he influenced Friedman, I think he’d give both of us conniptions.

It’s both his black and white way of viewing things and that it stresses him that I don’t like.

But (deep breath) he will grow out of it :)

The teachers unions here (& I’m very pro-union until you get me onto the topic of teachers’ unions) are very left-wing, convinced teachers are low paid (they’re not in my province, not at all), regularly get into barnies with the government (only occasionally on issues where they have public support). They live in their own little world. I have friends who’re English and have taught in England & I think pay and conditions are very different here.

[Whizziwig]

Oops, sorry, missed you were in Canada and don't know what the curriculum is like there. I have worked with a few Canadian teachers though and wouldn't have labelled any of them as Marxists!

[Otterturk]

YES! Buy his Hayek's 'the road to serfdom' and Robert Nozick's 'Anarchy state and utopia' then - when you next visit the UK - have him go to a few events at the IEA.

[Ttbb]

Just buy him Hayeck's The institution of Liberty and refuse to speak to him on the matter until he has read it cover to cover. Sending to iea events is also a good idea. Don't worry, it's most likely a phase that will pass as he gets older.

[Whizziwig]

It’s annoying but unsurprising given the indoctrination children get at schools

Complete rubbish. There is no room on the current curriculum for more than the most cursory of glances at anything political.

I think it's a good thing that your DS is engaged with politics as so many teenagers that I encounter seem thoroughly clueless. I don't have to live with him though so I appreciate how wearing it must be. All you can do is hope to show him how to share an opinion in a reasonable way. Also take a deep breath and remember that it won't be too long until he either moves out or will become more occupied with other things as he gets older. 17 year olds have a lot of time to ponder.

My own DM I have been on completely opposing political spectrums since I was about the same age as your son. We've had many a barney about it but age and maturity did help me learn to agree to disagree.

[kitnkaboodle]

Count yourself lucky you don't have a 15 year old William Hague like I do . Ranting on about defence cuts, etc. He would have been a staunch Thatcherite, I'm sure

[lljkk]

You say he's not obsessive but then he won't let go of his bone.

[lizzieoak]

True enough. We’re in Canada (British parent and all grandparents British - not wanting to narrow that down as maybe identifying), but it’s the same here. Here though the focus is primarily on how teachers are the vanguard of the working class and practically on the breadline (they are solidly middle class here, much better pay and conditions than in the UK). Right from a young age, from infants years, they’re getting the poor wee things all worried about the environment. Because a 7 year old obsessing about plastic will save the planet. It gave my kids sleepless nights.

I voted Labor when I lived in England and vote the equivalent here. But I’m not much of a one for towing the party line and I suppose I’m more old Labour.

Yesterday I had a nice chat with his older sister (my dd) over coffee and she said that at his age she had a lot of daft opinions but has grown out of them and feels he will too. So that cheered me up.

[Northernparent68]

It’s annoying but unsurprising given the indoctrination children get at schools

[lizzieoak]

And there’s this: this morning he was on his phone and sort of sniggered. I said “what?” And he said “the British economy is tanking because of Brexit.” (As with most young people he’s very anti-Brexit because of not being able to move to Paris without a visa, and because he thinks it’s somehow discriminatory against non-whites to maybe slow immigration from Europe. Basically).

I said “I often have a laugh at low income people losing their jobs when the economy crashes.” Glaring at him.

He says “Come on, you don’t find it funny when coal miners in Virginia who voted for Trump lose their health insurance?” “No, I don’t” I say, followed by muttering that the left I believe in has been taken over by theorist who have no idea how average people live.

He honestly is a very nice person. Typical of his age he’s passionate about his interests, one of which is left-wing politics. And we’re in agreement on some points, but on others he comes across to me as very privileged. I am looking forward to that aspect of his age passing!