Done with the disrespect. Have i gone overboard?

[Nipplesunited]

I have been as patient and as understanding as i possibly can do with my son.
I have managed to stop his disrespectful behaviour at home...to a point. Only it seems to have now escalated outside of the home.
School being one of the main points. Its got that bad they dont even feel he is capable of mainstream school anymore. They are containing him until he has been statemented.

Regardless of any underlying issue - there is no excuse for rude and disrespectful behaviour.
I have had enough now.

I have disconnected his xbox and removed internet from any of his devices.
I am currently buying out of his phone contract (on hold) because hes not able to stay within its limits.

My plan is he gets absolutely no form of internet access or easy way to communicate with his friends. Until there is a massive improvement.

I havent gone over the top have i?

[CloudPerson]

Even if autism/PDA isn't diagnosed, finding and using strategies that work can make a big difference, and if school are receptive they may be able to use various strategies him there.
If you're struggling to get a referral, if you can afford it you could go private?

With the Internet, we find banning is a sure fire way to make it the only thing the boys want to do.
We have very good parental controls on, and we have discovered that through BT (other providers may have the same thing), you can control how long they go on, so you can set it to turn on and off at certain times. We tend to do this sporadically, and blame BT - oh dear, the internet's gone off again! Which makes it easier for them to cope with as it's not a punishment, just one of the annoying features of BT Internet.

[Nipplesunited]

He was onvirgin and i could have upoed his usage massively for an extra £4 but i did tell him if he went over again i would cut it off. I had to stick with it. Even if only for a week or so.
I also wanted to limit his contact as much as possible with these new friends.

Today he was sent home from school for refusing to do a punishment. When i get out of work i had a missed call from a kids mum. This kid went missing lastnight and was found by police. She said her son had walked out of school and was heard saying he was heading to my area. He walked my son home lastnight to find out where we lived! I got home from work to the pair of them sitting on my doorstep. I told my son if he leaves i wilk report him missing and advised him to get back into the house. He didnt. Now he has been reported missing.

I am so tired of this. Ive already had a nightmare this morning and a rush to the vets and only just making it on time to work. Then i come back home to this. I need to leave to pick younger two up soon as well. After little sleep from the stress of lastnight. Fuck sake

[Astro55]

Can you live or move schools?

Where's dad?

[Nipplesunited]

Dad is a waste of space. Moving schools was an option before but he said he would only move to one particular school and there were no spaces. The same issues would have happened there too. Now i think his behaviour in school is too far gone for a move to even be an option. He wouldnt have the level of support or understanding that he has where he is at.

They do believe that he will be moved to a behavioural unit come september. We need the statement to back him up so he doesnt just end up expelled

[Nipplesunited]

Dad has very little contact. Its just when he feels like it and its not often.
The school question his contact around behaviour.
He started comp in september and was doing great. He had contact with his in october and then everything changed.
The contact was first contact after quite a few years. Dad told him at the end of that contact that he would get christmas and new year out of the way before arranging to see him again.

[1nsanityscatching]

Poor boy, he must feel rejected I'd be wary of school making contact as the sole reason for his behaviour in school because it absolves them of the need to look closely at what is going on in their own back yard. Ds and dd are certainly not so sophisticated in their reactions,if the problem is in school then it shows in their reaction in school.
There does seem to be a lot of punishing going on both at school and at home and I'm not sure that it's particularly helpful tbh. Ds has/had a diagnosis of extreme challenging behaviour alongside the autism and punishments just exacerbated every situation. He hasn't been punished in years but his behaviour is pretty much perfect these days. I think you tend to get the behaviour you expect a lot of the time so having consequences in place already sort of dooms you to failure a lot of the time.
Ds had rewards, lots and lots of rewards both at home and at school difficult or challenging behaviour was talked about later when all was calm and suggestions made as to what would have been a better course of action but there was no comment at the time and no consequences. We worked on the basis that we were a team and we were all working together to make things better for ds because his behaviour was communication and we just needed to work out what that behaviour was saying to us. Making things right for ds stopped the challenging behaviour.
I would see the good start and then a deterioration more in terms that initially he was frozen with fear.He'd gone from an environment that was small and familiar and comfortable into something completely alien to him, most likely with difficult sensory experiences, numerous changes of rooms/teachers/classmates/rules/teaching styles and higher expectations and more challenging academically.
He took it for a month and it wasn't getting better and then the gates opened and he started communicating his distress because being quiet and good he wasn't being heard. So he started being challenging, yes he got punished but he got out of classes, yes he got a reputation but arguing the toss meant that he spent time doing something that was easier than coping with how he felt and doing the work whilst feeling so out of control. And now he's really out of control,he's got the street cred and respect of his peers that you'd rather he didn't and that won't alter until someone hears what he's really communicating because his peers will egg him on and give him validation when home and school seem in opposition to him rather than supporting him.
He needs help not punishment, he needs to be enabled to communicate what is happening and what he needs rather than being expected to comply through more and more severe and harsher punishments. What he really needs is a proper assessment of his difficulties by speech therapy, psychology and OT and then knowing his own individual needs he needs proper support put in place at school and you need support at home too so that you don't get to breaking point and so you feel you have enough understanding of his needs to be able to be your child's best advocate

[Alditha]

My son is 13 and we're having a very difficult time with him at the moment. I don't know if his behaviour is normal or not. He's been bunking off, got out of his bedroom window and went missing in the middle of the night. We had the police out. He's rude and disrespectful, spends more money, steels food and really doesn't give a toss. He's doing ok at school and though we've had a meeting with them they did not alert us he was bunking off or if he's doing ok in classes. I'm very interested in your thread because I'm starting to wonder if there is something else going on with him.
Good luck with your son because it is bloody hard work at this age with some boys.

[Nipplesunited]

Thank you for that. That seems to hit the nail right on the head.
I even pleaded with the school this morning that they gave a bit leeway, by using fridays exclusion (for refusal of punishment) as a punishment in itself. My son has made it clear he feels he is being punished twice for the same thing.
They refused to budge despite me telling them he is going into school expecting to be sent home for refusing the punishment.
Within half an hour of him going in, i get the call to pick him up. I made my point again and told the deputy head that i think they should give a little bit of leeway considering he is currently undergoing assessments and it is clear to everyone there is an underlying issue. It is clear to see that he can not deal with things in the way the majority of kids in the school do.
As much as i understand they need to treat them all the same, i cant help but feel it is unfair on my son when if he did have paperwork backing up what we feel is the case - then they would put things in place to cater for his needs. I dont see why they cant make an exception. Especially when they have already stated they are only containing him right now.

Had they of listened this morning...none of this would have happened today. The way they are handling things, he is going to end up expelled from the school before things have even been completed. I have even suggested home schooling out of fear of that happening. Dont get me wrong they are a good source of support but as for listening to him...they are not very good.

I have been near breaking point today, a few times. Im feeling a lot calmer now.

His new friend has been sent to his dads so he is out of the picture thank god.

[1nsanityscatching]

Having an assessment of his needs and hopefully a diagnosis will give you the right to demand that the school make every reasonable adjustment needed in order for him to be able to access an education. They don't have to treat everybody the same, it's perfectly possible to give an individual child what they need alongside the majority.
Ds did primary in Mainstream,they managed to deal with his behaviour without ever punishing him. He attended an ASD unit in secondary but attended many lessons alongside his mainstream peers. He never received a detention,a strike or even a telling off but he received rewards galore and adjustments as required. Dd in mainstream Secondary won't ever get a strike,a detention or anything else no matter what, it doesn't work for them and so it doesn't happen.
There needs to be a change of focus from punishing to enabling and that's difficult when behaviours become entrenched and reactions get more and more extreme tbh.
He was set up to fail today and each failure comes at a price both to your ds in terms of his self esteem and his ability to cope in future and also to the school because your son's trust and belief in them being able to make things right is being eroded each and every time they get it wrong.

[Nipplesunited]

Could you have got those things put in place at school without a diagnosis?

It definitely seems like they set him up to fail a fair bit.

I try and voice my opinion but i keep getting shot down with how if another pupil did whatever, then x punishment would be put in place. So they must do the same.

He is on report but cant see his report at the end of the day as he argues about it and escalates everything.
I feel he is right at being targeted in a sense and this report is not helping in these circumstances.
It is highlighting all of the negatives so that each teacher is only focusing on the negatives. So whenever anything does happen they jump the gun, where as another child may do the same and they brush it off as a one off.
That is his arguement constantly. He is not the only one doing these things, yet he is where he is and they are not.

He is not a child who goes around throwing chairs, squaring up to teachers or swearing at them. It is always about him arguing his case and not being able to see another view point. He can get very frustrated during this, and stubborn and this is where the problems lie. He does not back down from his point.

I can completely see his point about this punishment and i wish they would just let it drop as he is more than willing to continue back where he was - even though he really wants to be back in normal lessons. He accepts that is not going to happen.

[Nipplesunited]

I keep batting back and forth between understanding and then completely peed off with him!

I reported him missing earlier. Police caught up with him at 7.30pm from 1:20pm . They asked me if i was adamant he was to be brought home, or if he could just play out until half 9. They said he is clearly just going to run if they try to get him so would i be happy, knowing he is safe to just let him come home at his in time. I wasnt happy, but also wasnt happy with wasting police time so agreed to 9pm.
Because my son stated 9.30pm he has not turned up!
His dictating and him thinking he can stay out all hours when he is only 12 is getting beyond a joke.
Him not listening to me with rules and boundaries is becoming concerning as i am clearly unable to keep him safe!

[1nsanityscatching]

Well ds and dd had diagnoses at 2 and 2 and a half and statements at three so there have always been adjustments made.
Having a diagnosis and a statement gives you power I suppose and I know my two well and can argue a case for any adjustment I believe they need. I also know what the school can and should do and am not afraid to make sure they do it so that helps as well.
I think it's probably easier to know there is a difference early on tbh. I never really treated ds and dd as typical children,I always considered the ASD.
My two like rules and boundaries but they like to have an equal say in where they lie so I've become a skilled negotiator because I've had to be tbh.
Telling mine "you will do X" would guarantee they would do anything but X tbh. Ds because he finds it difficult to comply unless there is something in it for him and dd because her anxiety would prevent her from doing it for fear of failing or because of performance anxiety. So we talk about what we'd like the outcome to be and then decide between us how we can best get there (or as close to the outcome we'd like as possible if I'm honest)
Totally agree that your ds can't be allowed to just run wild at 12 but you will need to get some sort of cooperation from him to make that happen. You won't get that through ramping up punishments really because he has no reason to behave as you'd like and can stay out to avoid the punishment. Ds was bigger than me at age 9 and physically very strong and he didn't really have a conscience so would do what he needed to do to get what he wanted. I had to find a way that worked and so for ds I'd need to have an incentive for him to comply with anything and it would have to be one that he would see as worth his while. For dd I'd probably not suggest a curfew but talk instead about the need to be rested for the following day and ask what time she would think would be the latest she could stay out until and still be ok next day. She would then set her own curfew and it wouldn't be anywhere near as anxiety inducing that way,
I suppose what I'm saying is that quite often parenting ds and dd like I did my others would just cause problems but by adjusting my own behaviour and knowing how they work I can get the same results with a different method.
I daresay to the outside world it appears that I'm pussyfooting round them and they have a lot of power but from experience you push too much and you come up against a brick wall where leading them with their cooperation then you have a half decent chance of getting somewhere near where you want to be.

[Nipplesunited]

I definitely agree with how you have adapted your parenting to being best suited for you and your dc. I like to think i have been able to do that to some degree.

I will try and put in motion some of the ways you do things. I just need to summon some strength from somewhere.

Tonight i have taken all access to the internet. When i take the internet, i always leave him access to the firestick so he can have movies. Tonight though its just all gone. Simply because i am sick. I have probably gone about things wrong, but i have tried to explain the best i can to him that he cannot keep making his own rules and expecting people to accept them when he refuses to follow others rules and boundaries.

I am going to speak to him again tomorrow when i am calm and tell him that he can earn things back.

I will also be getting in touch with the support worker as i dont feel i am handling things all too well at the minute.

This new circle of friends has sent my anxiety through the roof. I get a real bad feeling about them and i think it is affecting how im handling things in a bad way.

Im.just ranting now im sorry

[swingofthings]

When my boy turned 12, he became a little * to the point where I felt I could communicate with him unless it was to say exactly what he wanted to hear without him answering, shouting back, slamming doors etc... It didn't matter how much I made sure to adjust my own tone of voice so not to trigger that response, it came back totally disrespectfully.

Talking to other mums, it became clear that he wasn't the only one. Still, I found it extremely hard to deal with it as it made me feel really angry inside considering how much I try to be a good mum.

As I was told would happen, it gradually got better and sure enough, at now 14, there is none of this left, even when I tell him something he really doesn't want to be told. The only time he will be potentially rude is when his favourite team loses, and even then, it's only when it's a key game! I know then to leave alone until he comes down. Last I didn't because I wasn't aware of the game and he responded shortly, he actually apologised afterwards!

I have found this phase really difficult, but you are doing the right thing but challenging his behaviour each time, even if it is 'just a phase', as however much it is linked with their hormones, they need to learn that it is not excusable.

[Oblomov17]

Am reading this with interest. Especially 1nsanity's posts. I have been on MN for years and I have tried to adjust my parenting. But I just keep failing.

Now I've got ds1 'On Report', like OP has. Everything feels very punitive. As we have agreed, like Cloud, punishments just don't work.

Yet, (just to play devils advocate here) when you ask for adjustments, say from school, Why should they comply? All the other kids, are doing what is expected. How does it help our children if we let them, not do what all the others are doing?

I feel that it is my parenting duty to at least try and help ds1 understand that he needs to comply with the norm.

Schools these days, just don't need the hassle. I get tired of the extra work that ds1 requires. Why should they? They put in a bit of extra effort, but within a short time, you are back to, because we all divert back to our natural self. Why would the school keep putting up with it. I fear many of us are on a slippery slope to school expelling us.

Ds1 loves that school. And his mates. I don't think I could home school him.

This is very tricky. For us all. Draining!!

[Nipplesunited]

It really is tricky.
The school have finally accepted that punishments are not working and we are going to look at other ways of dealing with this.
They have allowed him to go back into school today as normal (still not in normal lessons - he is in a supportive area) otherwise we arent going to get anywhere and at least we know he is safe.

I also dont think i could homeschool. Id imagine it would just damage our relationship and make things ten times worse, but it was a suggestion as i feel stuck on what to do for the best. Thankfully they advised against it

[1nsanityscatching]

oblomov you ask why should schools make adjustments? Well the standard answer would be because failing to do do would be discriminatory and unlawful so they don't have a choice in the matter. But I'd like to think that schools want the very best outcome for the children in their care like parents do and recognise that one size doesn't fit all and for many children it's unreasonable to expect them to adhere to and meet standardised expectations.
Taking my ds as an example, he had extreme challenging behaviour laying down the law never worked because he was totally self led. It didn't matter what you said or wanted because you didn't matter to him. Punishments never worked because there was nothing he cared about enough to be bothered if it was removed but he understood the concept of being punished and would exact his own justice. So you removed a car of his and he'd systematically destroy anything he could lay his hands on, you put him on the sad face in class for hitting a classmate and the first opportunity he got he'd wallop as many people he could get his hands on for no reason other than he didn't want his name moving.
I saw it as I had a choice I could carry on banging my head against a brick wall by parenting him like my others and all the while his behaviour was getting more and more extreme (at six I feared one day he would kill me or somebody else) or I could alter what I did and see how we got on.
Ds didn't care about my approval but he had stuff he liked and wanted and so I used that to alter things. Initially he got rewards for everything, pausing when I called his name and he'd get a wotsit (yes he probably still carried on and launched what he had in his hand but he paused at his name) Slowly he clicked that doing the things I approved of got him something he liked and so he had more of an incentive to do more of what I wanted.
At school he had one to one support and they did the same. He was rewarded for having something in his hand (because he'd throw at every opportunity) He was rewarded for screwing up his work (because his preferred act was to tear his and everyone else's work to shreds) He was rewarded for absolutely everything and negative behaviour's only consequence was that he didn't receive the reward that minute nothing else.
It worked and as he became more able the goalposts slowly shifted so he had to do more and go further to get the rewards and the rewards changed as well as he had to have the things he desired for them to be effective.
He had a statement and 1 to 1 support and I wasn't afraid to make sure that the support was being implemented as his statement described and also that his statement was up to date and working.
I suppose I'm lucky in so far as I have the patience of a saint and I'm a thinker and not reactive so it's easier for me to be logical about stuff. I expect it's a lot more difficult if you have any sort of temper tbh. But really it soon became a habit and the norm and I didn't have to think about it, I always had rewards on me and I always had a plan for all outcomes.
I personally don't feel bad at all that school's have to meet the needs of the children there. My thoughts are "you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen" if I'm honest because they chose that profession, they would have been made aware of the need for inclusion and the Equality Act so if they didn't feel it was something they could adhere to they shouldn't have signed up to work in a school at the end of the day.
Ds never got excluded not even once because of all the measures put in place and incredibly at 14 he got the HT award at prize giving for "having behaviour and an attitude to learning second to none"
Of course his statement could have been ignored, he could have been punished and excluded repeatedly trying to get him to comply because that would have been the easy and the lazy option and for ds I think it would have been dangerous tbh because my fear at six that he'd kill me wasn't really unfounded as at the time we had all been injured by ds requiring stitches and xrays for chipped bones and concussion.

[1nsanityscatching]

Nipples glad that the school are going to look at alternatives to punishments. To get results you have to find the right methods rather than upping the ante when the method you use isn't working IME. I've written above a little about ds's history just to illustrate that you can successfully alter behaviours without being confrontational or punitive.

[Oblomov17]

1nsanity, I know, it's just so hard, to get it right: the balance between asking for help/adjustments and telling ds to just 'conform'.

I know that in a few years, he'll be out in the unforgiving world, and not much 'adjustments' are given in the workplace.

And I'm not talking about the law side, disability and adjustments, I'm just talking about the harsh reality of working. Why hire a candidate who is hard work, when there's 300 other applicants who are no trouble?

Many people/employers, hire the best, the easy option. Harsh, but true, I fear. I'm going to have to work hard, to get them to hire my ds1, rather than anyone else. I do worry about him.

[KindDogsTail]

I saw a review of this book by Ian Williamson in a newspaper. It is about raising Teenagers.
www.penguin.co.uk/books/1112606/we-need-to-talk/
I remember it was mentioned that mobiles/ipads etc could be removed as a sanction.

Something sounds wrong though. Are you alone without support? Is their any dad around?

[KindDogsTail]

This might be a better link to the book:

<a class="break-all" href="//www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/We-Need-Talk-Straight-Talking-Guide-Raising-Resilient/1785041053?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">//www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/We-Need-Talk-Straight-Talking-Guide-Raising-Resilient/1785041053?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[1nsanityscatching]

Yes I understand that Oblomov but without adjustments children like my ds and dd wouldn't have an education or qualifications and so no chance of a career anyway.
I will always fight for adjustments first because I believe a shut up and put up approach is bad for mental health. Just because our children's disabilities aren't visible doesn't mean they are less worthy of adjustments than more obvious disabilities. You wouldn't consider it reasonable to plonk a text book in front of a child who was blind and expect them to get on with it because everybody else (with sight) was managing perfectly fine would you?
As for employment I'd steer them into opportunities with employers where adjustments are made. Progress is being made, employers are practising diversity recruitment.Our Local Government and many others like them guarantee an interview to people with a disability and recruit in a way that their employees reflect real life.
Being treated equally doesn't mean being treated exactly the same it means that the adjustments made give the disadvantaged an equal chance of success. I think it's the least we should expect for our children tbh and I'll continue to fight to ensure that my dc get that even if it stresses out their teachers/ TA's tbh because they have a choice not to be in a profession that requires them to make reasonable adjustments but my children don't have the choice not to need them.

[Nipplesunited]

I am alone, yes. Just me and my 3 boys here. I do have support from the school and a family support worker, along with my dad.
My sons dad doesnt do anything. Rarely has contact and if he does, he just makes bad behaviour to be cool.
My dad is no good with my sons behaviour as he has no patience and is very old fashioned with his thinking.



1insanity - i think when having children with complex difficulties it forces you to have patience. As you say, you could keep going with the 'norm' and hoping one day they will comply, or you can adapt and try and find ways that work.
It is clear, once the outburst has happened and calmness has resumed that he does not want to have all of what has happened, to happen. You can see he wants to be able to accept things as the majority would but for some reason that neither of us can understand, he just cant. Which is why i would much rather my way of parenting and the schools way of handling things change. Rather than expecting a child who cant be expected to understand something we dont fully understand ourselves to change...just to make our jobs easier.

I can understand the schools approach of trying to force him to comply with their rules and consequences, especially when he does appear to be a child who just wishes to dictate.
I dont understand how they have went for so long without opening their mind to the possibility that things may need to be done differently. More so when they can all sit around the table and agree with me that there is an underlying cause now. Which i have to say took a while for them to agree to.

Today has been much calmer. He was in 20 minutes later than he should have been, but apologised and gave a reason. I just explained he must be conscious of the time in future in order to get home on time.
I have given him access to netflix so he can chill.

I work with younger children and where i work, we are always adapting to the childrens needs. Things are constantly being put in place or methods are tested to ensure that the child is given the best setup to achieve, rather than setting them up to fail by trying to force them to do something that they just cant do, no matter how trivial that reason might seem. I just dont understand how these teachers in a comp seem to be so close minded to the fact that some childrens needs can be so much different to others.

[Nipplesunited]

Went on a little bit of a rant there. Sorry

[KindDogsTail]

Don't be sorry, you've got a lot on your hands and why should yo not talk about it.

In my opinion, it often seems difficult for boys to manage without a dad around; and difficult for them to manage when they have a troublesome dad too, however wonderful their mother.