Done with the disrespect. Have i gone overboard?

[Nipplesunited]

I have been as patient and as understanding as i possibly can do with my son.
I have managed to stop his disrespectful behaviour at home...to a point. Only it seems to have now escalated outside of the home.
School being one of the main points. Its got that bad they dont even feel he is capable of mainstream school anymore. They are containing him until he has been statemented.

Regardless of any underlying issue - there is no excuse for rude and disrespectful behaviour.
I have had enough now.

I have disconnected his xbox and removed internet from any of his devices.
I am currently buying out of his phone contract (on hold) because hes not able to stay within its limits.

My plan is he gets absolutely no form of internet access or easy way to communicate with his friends. Until there is a massive improvement.

I havent gone over the top have i?

[TeenTan]

"relentlessly argumentative and stubborn. Will not back down ever

^^ this.

CAMHS have said there is massive anxiety there (which you would never guess from his everyday demeanour) and the intransigence is a desperate attempt to control. Result - endless detentions, threats of exclusion, all over bits of nonsense. It starts just how you said OP - silly behaviour such as flicking a bit of paper or chatting - and then the belligerence and stubbornness means it escalates to the point of having all the authorities involved

^how it is for my son at school

It can look a bit like AS but actually in his case it isn't

Backingvocals this has been my experience with my 14 year old son in the last year or two (and getting worse).

How did you decide it was generalised "anxiety" rather than ASD? Just wondering.

I'm fed up with the whole bloody thing.

[PokemonWanker]

In the same boat here with DS who is 14. We've been fighting for a diagnosis, any sort of help, EHCP, etc for ages. I've found you just need to keep chasing everyone and be on their case all the time.

Those of you who don't give consequences, what do you do if your DC deliberately damages property, swears/is verbally aggressive, comes home late, etc? We've been cutting off the wifi from the router as a consequence, it has never had any effect and I'm at a loss how to proceed. Do you ignore the behaviours? Even when calm DS can't see my perspective when I try to explain.

[millifiori]

I'm not saying he's autistic, but that very clear wording thing is exactly how my DS is. You need to spell everything out in really clear terms. Like: Today you can go to Next Town to see This Mate. But it won't always be convenient, so if you want to go out tomorrow, or any other day, you need to check with me again, like you did today. OK?

I've learned to my cost that just saying, 'Yes that's fine' is taken to mean now and always for everything. :)

[Nipplesunited]

I just let the milk thing go, i just ranted about it on here instead ha.
That is interesting to find similar traits but it not being any form of autism, so thank you for sharing.

I have tried talking to him in every which way. I have tried staying on the positive approach. In fact, i think that is probably my main role i take. I just dont think it works. Although i do still try.
The past two nights he has came home early, which i am pleased about. Especially lastnight as he chose to leave with a friend who left earlier so that he didnt need to head back on his own. That usually wouldnt happen.
Now he has his tablet and xbox and knows i will confiscate both if he is late again.
I will try the choice thing millifori as it might work. It was a choice i offered for the tablet and xbox really. (If he chooses to come home on time he can have access) so i will try and use choices more often.

He is the type of kid that needs very clear rules and wording. Because i let him go for a day out with friends in another town, he now believes he has free reign to play in any town between ours and the one he had a day out in. He cant understand why.

Im so pleased their day out wasnt in a different borough ha id never know where he was!

[millifiori]

If his bed's wet from a drink being spilled, you could just nicely tell him to strip his bed, load the wahsing machine, get out new sheets and duvet covers and make his bed. No need ot get bossy or angry, but I always comment: It's a lot of work isn't it? it's tiring. That's why it makes me grumpy when it happens. I'll let you clear it up from now on so I don't get grumpy at you. But the deal is - if you have drinks in your room, then you must change the bed if they spill. That, or drink stuff downstairs - what do you choose?

My DS is autistic so I have to make these very clear rules but try and give him a bit of control over them by offering a choice, so he doesn't feel nagged.

[millifiori]

Hi OP,
I don't think you're being too harsh. But i wonder if you have had proper conversations with him, where you try and get him to understand the positive reasons behind your and the school's reactions to him. So instead of saying: in within 10 minutes of the time I say or I'll report you missing, which he might interpret as a threat, ask him: why do you think I set a time for you to come home. Listen to his answer. it always amazes me how wrong DS gets the reasons behind why we do things. If you make it clear it's because his safety and health and happiness, and yours too are at the root of it all, and that you want and deserve for both of you to feel safe and secure and calm - that's your job as a mum, maybe he'll have a change of attitude. It may sound unlikely but it works with DS2 who is autistic. He needs everything explaining very clearly. he can't work out the emotional or background motives for what adults do when it affects him.

As to the cups of tea on his head stuff - I think that's just teenage brain. Make a joke of it maybe. I still mother mine a bit and make them a supper - hot drink and snack before bed, so they don't need to take the cup upstairs.

[Backingvocals]

No real advice other than to say a family member has similar traits. Everything seems fine except inability to keep his head down - relentlessly argumentative and stubborn. Will not back down ever. CAMHS have said there is massive anxiety there (which you would never guess from his everyday demeanour) and the intransigence is a desperate attempt to control. Result - endless detentions, threats of exclusion, all over bits of nonsense. It starts just how you said OP - silly behaviour such as flicking a bit of paper or chatting - and then the belligerence and stubbornness means it escalates to the point of having all the authorities involved.

It can look a bit like AS but actually in his case it isn't.

Just sharing in case this might sound familiar.

[Squeegle]

OP, sorry for what you're going through. Don't have the answers either, I have DS who is 13, constantly in trouble at school and rude at home. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and ODD so is impulsive and argumentative and also aggressive. I think puberty has a huge amount to answer for with these boys. I am finding empathy works better than punishment st the moment, but it is extremely difficult to know where to draw the line. Also with these big boys punishments are difficult to impose i.e. Grounding.
Good luck, keep on with the school, you need to get the ed psych on the case and a proper diagnosis of his difficulties so that you and they all know how best to support. It is so wearing, I do sympathise, it drives me to the edge too!

[Nipplesunited]

It definitely seems like it is some form of autism. When reading your posts 1nsanity, i can relate to a fair bit of it with my son. So thank you for sharing. It has helped massively with bringing me back from pure frustration with him, to more understanding.
It is also reassuring to know tha i am not alone. It seems there are quite a few who can relate to my son, so i hope that this thread has helped others too.

I never had any issues like this in primary. It seemed like a switch flicked and he was different.
He has always been a messy boy. He can lay on his bed and have rubbish beside his head from where he has ate crisps and what not. Even bowls at times. I went to wake him the other day and there was a cup of milk beside his head and the bed was soaked, along with the floor. He obviously made the drink, never drank any of it and fell asleep with it standing on his bed beside him.
He has a cabinet in arms reach he could have placed it on.

He didnt come in until 9:50 lastnight. Brilliant excuses yet again...he was taking his mates home. Theyre older than he is and dont need to be in until later than he does. He must think i have no brain.

I have told him if he has a 10 minute window from his in time. If he is not in after 10 minutes past his in time, i am reporting him missing.
Over the top, maybe...but i dont know how else to make sure he is home on time.
He wants the internet back on his tablet and xbox so i have told him if he comes home on time it is something i will consider. Hopefully that is enough and i dont need to go down the reporting him route

[mamawoo]

No advice but I understand DS2 also 12 and in year 7 has not settled in well detentions for disrespect and no homework a plenty report cards etc it's never his fault always someone else's he doesn't get that you can't talk to adults the way he does he can't organise himself and it always goes wrong no matter how hard I try - never had any issues like this at juniors so it comes as a bolt from the blue!

[Oblomov17]

Rant away OP. MN is here to support you.

My ds also has little respect for teachers or anyone in authority really and thinks they are all idiots.

A school who are set and rigid in their mindset is a hindrance to most of us SN mums, that's for sure!!

Good luck OP!!

[1nsanityscatching]

I think until children with invisible disabilities are born with a bright red A on their foreheads schools, teachers and Joe Public will judge them on their outward appearance to be "totally fine" tbh.
It infuriates me at times tbh. Dd has her diagnosis and a good statement describing her difficulties and needs but still the school have only a basic and tenuous understanding and I have to explain so much (and dd has the autism specialist TA as her 1 to 1 )
They meet the statement and act on all my pointers (because they wouldn't dare not to ) but they don't exactly inspire confidence and dd gets the best support of any child in that school.
Dd is very bright, has a huge vocabulary and has speech that shows she is intelligent, deep thinking and reasoned. They still don't grasp that she has communication difficulties and then are surprised when I contact them with a problem because "dd never mentioned anything" They know dd is highly anxious but then are surprised when all the constant little changes that happen weekly and without notice leave her unable to cope or to refuse.They still see refusal as her being difficult even though they know she has acute anxiety and is generally rule bound,it's exhausting at times if I'm honest.
I feel for your boy you know, he's not really arguing the toss I don't think. I suspect he has very rigid ideas and an inability to see the other person's point of view and really he is trying to explain himself. The teachers see it as insolence and expect him to respect their authority. Ds sees them as equal and is frustrated he's not getting his point across and afterwards he's confused about what he did wrong Dd and ds both struggle with seeing others' authority as well, dd often says "who made them queen/king?" but she's learnt to do it quietly to me later nowadays ,ds just used to growl which got his point across without him needing to say a word .
Lots of things are bizarre to ds and dd for instance "why tell someone their dress is lovely when you think it's hideous if telling lies is wrong?" "why shouldn't you point out to a teacher where their spelling and grammar is wrong when they underline mistakes in your books?" etc etc the list goes on and on,there's no wonder they are stressed tbh.
I'm glad today has been better,you handled the twenty minutes just like I would and Netflix chilling sounds great. I think you should trust your instincts tbh, you get results doing things your way so carry on don't be afraid to challenge the school's methods if you think they are wrong or feel forced to support that at home either.You are your child's best advocate, remember that.

[KindDogsTail]

Don't be sorry, you've got a lot on your hands and why should yo not talk about it.

In my opinion, it often seems difficult for boys to manage without a dad around; and difficult for them to manage when they have a troublesome dad too, however wonderful their mother.

[Nipplesunited]

Went on a little bit of a rant there. Sorry

[Nipplesunited]

I am alone, yes. Just me and my 3 boys here. I do have support from the school and a family support worker, along with my dad.
My sons dad doesnt do anything. Rarely has contact and if he does, he just makes bad behaviour to be cool.
My dad is no good with my sons behaviour as he has no patience and is very old fashioned with his thinking.



1insanity - i think when having children with complex difficulties it forces you to have patience. As you say, you could keep going with the 'norm' and hoping one day they will comply, or you can adapt and try and find ways that work.
It is clear, once the outburst has happened and calmness has resumed that he does not want to have all of what has happened, to happen. You can see he wants to be able to accept things as the majority would but for some reason that neither of us can understand, he just cant. Which is why i would much rather my way of parenting and the schools way of handling things change. Rather than expecting a child who cant be expected to understand something we dont fully understand ourselves to change...just to make our jobs easier.

I can understand the schools approach of trying to force him to comply with their rules and consequences, especially when he does appear to be a child who just wishes to dictate.
I dont understand how they have went for so long without opening their mind to the possibility that things may need to be done differently. More so when they can all sit around the table and agree with me that there is an underlying cause now. Which i have to say took a while for them to agree to.

Today has been much calmer. He was in 20 minutes later than he should have been, but apologised and gave a reason. I just explained he must be conscious of the time in future in order to get home on time.
I have given him access to netflix so he can chill.

I work with younger children and where i work, we are always adapting to the childrens needs. Things are constantly being put in place or methods are tested to ensure that the child is given the best setup to achieve, rather than setting them up to fail by trying to force them to do something that they just cant do, no matter how trivial that reason might seem. I just dont understand how these teachers in a comp seem to be so close minded to the fact that some childrens needs can be so much different to others.

[1nsanityscatching]

Yes I understand that Oblomov but without adjustments children like my ds and dd wouldn't have an education or qualifications and so no chance of a career anyway.
I will always fight for adjustments first because I believe a shut up and put up approach is bad for mental health. Just because our children's disabilities aren't visible doesn't mean they are less worthy of adjustments than more obvious disabilities. You wouldn't consider it reasonable to plonk a text book in front of a child who was blind and expect them to get on with it because everybody else (with sight) was managing perfectly fine would you?
As for employment I'd steer them into opportunities with employers where adjustments are made. Progress is being made, employers are practising diversity recruitment.Our Local Government and many others like them guarantee an interview to people with a disability and recruit in a way that their employees reflect real life.
Being treated equally doesn't mean being treated exactly the same it means that the adjustments made give the disadvantaged an equal chance of success. I think it's the least we should expect for our children tbh and I'll continue to fight to ensure that my dc get that even if it stresses out their teachers/ TA's tbh because they have a choice not to be in a profession that requires them to make reasonable adjustments but my children don't have the choice not to need them.

[KindDogsTail]

This might be a better link to the book:

<a class="break-all" href="//www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/We-Need-Talk-Straight-Talking-Guide-Raising-Resilient/1785041053?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">//www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/We-Need-Talk-Straight-Talking-Guide-Raising-Resilient/1785041053?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[KindDogsTail]

I saw a review of this book by Ian Williamson in a newspaper. It is about raising Teenagers.
www.penguin.co.uk/books/1112606/we-need-to-talk/
I remember it was mentioned that mobiles/ipads etc could be removed as a sanction.

Something sounds wrong though. Are you alone without support? Is their any dad around?

[Oblomov17]

1nsanity, I know, it's just so hard, to get it right: the balance between asking for help/adjustments and telling ds to just 'conform'.

I know that in a few years, he'll be out in the unforgiving world, and not much 'adjustments' are given in the workplace.

And I'm not talking about the law side, disability and adjustments, I'm just talking about the harsh reality of working. Why hire a candidate who is hard work, when there's 300 other applicants who are no trouble?

Many people/employers, hire the best, the easy option. Harsh, but true, I fear. I'm going to have to work hard, to get them to hire my ds1, rather than anyone else. I do worry about him.

[1nsanityscatching]

Nipples glad that the school are going to look at alternatives to punishments. To get results you have to find the right methods rather than upping the ante when the method you use isn't working IME. I've written above a little about ds's history just to illustrate that you can successfully alter behaviours without being confrontational or punitive.

[1nsanityscatching]

oblomov you ask why should schools make adjustments? Well the standard answer would be because failing to do do would be discriminatory and unlawful so they don't have a choice in the matter. But I'd like to think that schools want the very best outcome for the children in their care like parents do and recognise that one size doesn't fit all and for many children it's unreasonable to expect them to adhere to and meet standardised expectations.
Taking my ds as an example, he had extreme challenging behaviour laying down the law never worked because he was totally self led. It didn't matter what you said or wanted because you didn't matter to him. Punishments never worked because there was nothing he cared about enough to be bothered if it was removed but he understood the concept of being punished and would exact his own justice. So you removed a car of his and he'd systematically destroy anything he could lay his hands on, you put him on the sad face in class for hitting a classmate and the first opportunity he got he'd wallop as many people he could get his hands on for no reason other than he didn't want his name moving.
I saw it as I had a choice I could carry on banging my head against a brick wall by parenting him like my others and all the while his behaviour was getting more and more extreme (at six I feared one day he would kill me or somebody else) or I could alter what I did and see how we got on.
Ds didn't care about my approval but he had stuff he liked and wanted and so I used that to alter things. Initially he got rewards for everything, pausing when I called his name and he'd get a wotsit (yes he probably still carried on and launched what he had in his hand but he paused at his name) Slowly he clicked that doing the things I approved of got him something he liked and so he had more of an incentive to do more of what I wanted.
At school he had one to one support and they did the same. He was rewarded for having something in his hand (because he'd throw at every opportunity) He was rewarded for screwing up his work (because his preferred act was to tear his and everyone else's work to shreds) He was rewarded for absolutely everything and negative behaviour's only consequence was that he didn't receive the reward that minute nothing else.
It worked and as he became more able the goalposts slowly shifted so he had to do more and go further to get the rewards and the rewards changed as well as he had to have the things he desired for them to be effective.
He had a statement and 1 to 1 support and I wasn't afraid to make sure that the support was being implemented as his statement described and also that his statement was up to date and working.
I suppose I'm lucky in so far as I have the patience of a saint and I'm a thinker and not reactive so it's easier for me to be logical about stuff. I expect it's a lot more difficult if you have any sort of temper tbh. But really it soon became a habit and the norm and I didn't have to think about it, I always had rewards on me and I always had a plan for all outcomes.
I personally don't feel bad at all that school's have to meet the needs of the children there. My thoughts are "you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen" if I'm honest because they chose that profession, they would have been made aware of the need for inclusion and the Equality Act so if they didn't feel it was something they could adhere to they shouldn't have signed up to work in a school at the end of the day.
Ds never got excluded not even once because of all the measures put in place and incredibly at 14 he got the HT award at prize giving for "having behaviour and an attitude to learning second to none"
Of course his statement could have been ignored, he could have been punished and excluded repeatedly trying to get him to comply because that would have been the easy and the lazy option and for ds I think it would have been dangerous tbh because my fear at six that he'd kill me wasn't really unfounded as at the time we had all been injured by ds requiring stitches and xrays for chipped bones and concussion.

[Nipplesunited]

It really is tricky.
The school have finally accepted that punishments are not working and we are going to look at other ways of dealing with this.
They have allowed him to go back into school today as normal (still not in normal lessons - he is in a supportive area) otherwise we arent going to get anywhere and at least we know he is safe.

I also dont think i could homeschool. Id imagine it would just damage our relationship and make things ten times worse, but it was a suggestion as i feel stuck on what to do for the best. Thankfully they advised against it

[Oblomov17]

Am reading this with interest. Especially 1nsanity's posts. I have been on MN for years and I have tried to adjust my parenting. But I just keep failing.

Now I've got ds1 'On Report', like OP has. Everything feels very punitive. As we have agreed, like Cloud, punishments just don't work.

Yet, (just to play devils advocate here) when you ask for adjustments, say from school, Why should they comply? All the other kids, are doing what is expected. How does it help our children if we let them, not do what all the others are doing?

I feel that it is my parenting duty to at least try and help ds1 understand that he needs to comply with the norm.

Schools these days, just don't need the hassle. I get tired of the extra work that ds1 requires. Why should they? They put in a bit of extra effort, but within a short time, you are back to, because we all divert back to our natural self. Why would the school keep putting up with it. I fear many of us are on a slippery slope to school expelling us.

Ds1 loves that school. And his mates. I don't think I could home school him.

This is very tricky. For us all. Draining!!

[swingofthings]

When my boy turned 12, he became a little * to the point where I felt I could communicate with him unless it was to say exactly what he wanted to hear without him answering, shouting back, slamming doors etc... It didn't matter how much I made sure to adjust my own tone of voice so not to trigger that response, it came back totally disrespectfully.

Talking to other mums, it became clear that he wasn't the only one. Still, I found it extremely hard to deal with it as it made me feel really angry inside considering how much I try to be a good mum.

As I was told would happen, it gradually got better and sure enough, at now 14, there is none of this left, even when I tell him something he really doesn't want to be told. The only time he will be potentially rude is when his favourite team loses, and even then, it's only when it's a key game! I know then to leave alone until he comes down. Last I didn't because I wasn't aware of the game and he responded shortly, he actually apologised afterwards!

I have found this phase really difficult, but you are doing the right thing but challenging his behaviour each time, even if it is 'just a phase', as however much it is linked with their hormones, they need to learn that it is not excusable.

[Nipplesunited]

I definitely agree with how you have adapted your parenting to being best suited for you and your dc. I like to think i have been able to do that to some degree.

I will try and put in motion some of the ways you do things. I just need to summon some strength from somewhere.

Tonight i have taken all access to the internet. When i take the internet, i always leave him access to the firestick so he can have movies. Tonight though its just all gone. Simply because i am sick. I have probably gone about things wrong, but i have tried to explain the best i can to him that he cannot keep making his own rules and expecting people to accept them when he refuses to follow others rules and boundaries.

I am going to speak to him again tomorrow when i am calm and tell him that he can earn things back.

I will also be getting in touch with the support worker as i dont feel i am handling things all too well at the minute.

This new circle of friends has sent my anxiety through the roof. I get a real bad feeling about them and i think it is affecting how im handling things in a bad way.

Im.just ranting now im sorry