Daughter thinks shes male

[rockodog1]

My 16yr old daughter has told me she has always felt she was a boy
She has recently been diagnosed with Aspergers also which came as such a shock to us,she has been attending councellors since she was 14
and prescribed antidepressants
she has social anxiety really bad
Any help please??

[confusedBUTtrying]

I don't want to get into an argument over things, but this is the first time I've been on here since some things have been said and I would like the chance to respond to them. Also I apologise if I appear to repeat myself, I'm working my way through the thread since my last post.

I was going to be gender neutral in this reply, however it makes it much harder to read. So I will be referring to my child as She/Her, not as I don't respect them, but just to make it easier to read

respecteachother - "Also to the mum who's banned your child from the LGBT group and the internet as if LGBT support groups are some kind of cult. Please stop. You're damaging your child and your relationship with that child more than any youth group ever could."

Actually the youth club is only on once a week straight from school on the opposite side of the town. Once a month she already skips it due to having to work, and in the run up to the end of the school year she has had a lot of commitments keeping her back after school meaning she couldn't make it anyway. She has missed 1 session she would have otherwise gone to (we were really busy and didn't realise the time, even if she had been allowed to go) while still attending/leading the one in school.

She is banned from the internet for an entirely different reason. All I am going to say on that point is that e-safety came into it, and that issue had nothing to do with LGBT stuff. Also what happened is completely out of character for her.

I removed liked pages from her Facebook account as she had dozens and in some cases they were sharing things not suitable for 15 year olds. The LGBT youth group doesn't have a facebook page, instead it has a profile (which I personally don't agree with which is why I removed them for now) but friends who she has made there I have left on sher account. In September I will allow her access to these sorts of pages again, but she has to prove that she realises that just because there is a page on there relating to something she is interested in, doesn't mean that the contents is going to be suitable for someone of her age. I also want her to look at more UK based pages so the support is more local, the articles are more relevant etc.

I also agree with BeyondVulva, saying "Your child's condition" sounds like something you would say to someone who's teenager was pregnant or terminally ill. Not someone who is trying to help their child find their true selves.

I do not consider myself a bigot and I am offended that you would label people on here that. Speaking for myself, and only as I can't speak for others, I am not inolerant towards transgenders or anyone else. I have my opinion, I voice it, I listen to others, I converse about it and then see what the result is, sometimes I stick to my opinion, sometimes I change it. I do not disown people due to their different views. I know a number of people who are LGBT, some of whom I knew were LGBT back in the 90s before it was as socially acceptable and before they knew themselves in some cases. Nothing has changed between us in all that time.. I also have friends who don't conform to the gender norms, I have very masculine friends who are female, I have very feminine friends who are male and I have some who are smack bang in the middle and don't care either way as well as very stereotypical male/female friends.

"5. "Banning a child from outside influences is a good thing" Oh dear, what so you can force your own opinions on that child instead? I understand that statement if your child is hanging around with a load of criminals but the LGBT community doesn't hurt anyone and they're representative of more than 10% of the real world. Maybe we just completely differ in opinion here but I feel like the more different viewpoints and opinions we see the more well rounded we become. Allow your child to find themselves rather than making them into a mini version of you. If this child seems 'obsessed' with their lgbt support group has anyone considered trying to get that child involved in a larger range of hobbies instead of cutting they off from the main support they have? "

Actually I am not forcing my own opinions on my child. My issue was that it was ALL she was looking at due to the amount of pages she had liked. Before I did anything I scrolled down the timeline, and despite her having 40+ friends all that was visible on the timeline for almost the entire weekend was LGBT pages sharing articles and demanding equal rights for everyone (I have no problem with the equal rights and fully support it), publicising demonstrations (I don't think I saw one which wasn't in the USA), and stuff I didn't agree with due to the way in which they were presenting their arguments (as in the article was pro-LGBT but very hateful towards those who weren't. I realise these are few and far between, but there are some out there and no, I can't share the link as it was done weeks ago and I can't recall what it was).

I am trying to get a larger range of hobbies in her life. However, she is unwilling to look at anything else as she now binge watching a TV series while winding down at the end of a long and stressful school year.

I bought her a work book called "The Gender Quest Workbook: A Guide for Teens and Young Adults Exploring Gender Identity" and she did exactly what I predicted she would do. She sat down to look at it, immediately started filling things in in pencil (I insisted on the pencil), but instead of working through it in a methodical manner like she should do, she has jumped in and answered the bits she wanted to, the bits that were easy and is now 110% sure she is a he. I looked at the book, and she has skipped everything that would make her question rather than affirm stuff. I spoke to her dad, showed him the book and he agrees that she need to sit down and work her way through the book methodically as huge chunks are not done.

What I found most interesting was that she had skipped a lot of sections but the part about sex and sexuality she has painstakingly filled in from the beginning of the section and from what I've read, she is sounding just like I did at her age: Extremely curious about the opposite sex and wanting to know what things are like for them when it comes to sex, and sex in general. I am not going to encourage her to go out and have sex underage, but I know that a lot of the things she's written about I stopped thinking about once I started having sex. I'm not saying its a phase we all go through, but once my curiosity was satisfied I personally no longer questioned anything along those lines. Which adds stuff to the "phase" list so to speak.

I am not dismissing who my child is. I am just very aware that she seems to be swaying a lot when it comes to decision making and I really want to encourage her to think before she declares things. She 'came out' to her peers which totally surprised her teachers as they saw no 'signs' for want of a better word. I have recently had 'helpful advice' from my family over the way she is growing up, and how I am doing things wrong. I am honestly scared for the backlash that will come from them if she comes out to them as they are all opinionated and loud about it. The backlash is only ever verbal but I fear for what that could do to her mental health. This is why I want her to take her time, to really think about things, to be 200% sure she is a he before my family hear about it. I want her to be confident in who she is, and for her to be proud, and for her to tell them then stand her ground. The way things are ATM it will destroy what confidence she has (and we're working on building up) and make her retreat into herself. I don't want that. I'm looking at the long term here, not just the next 6 months.

[Just5minswithDacre]

I hope you got something useful amongst the punch ups rock.

[rockodog1]

Ok guys this is getting out of control
I am very glad of your replies but don't want to get involved in the arguing :-)

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

It is very very very (enough very's?) important that a child with asd is not told it is possible to change sex. Very very very important.

[SuburbanRhonda]

What "things" do you think the OP's DD shouldn't be told?

[respecteachother]

"I changed to sex as I assumed that was what you meant. As I have never seen anyone on mn say that "you can irreversibly change gender and regret it." What with a large chunk acknowledging that gender is not a tangible thing" - Various people were talking about getting hormones and surgery and that being harmful due to the chance those people could regret it. This is what I'm referring to, because transgender people transition like this to feel physically more like their gender. By changing their future they know they can't change how they physically looked in the past.

and yes I think that the majority of people posting here aren't doing it to support the OP anymore. I just wanted to be sure the OP didn't see some of the comments here and believe this is the way that everyone thinks, or especially that it's the only example of the way to treat her child. As I said in my last post it's always best to see a range of opinions to make your own mind up on whats right. I just want that child to be happy at the end of the day. If I were questioning my gender I would not want to be told the things or treated the way many of you are suggesting.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

I will also add, that I don't think this thread is the right place for this discussion, the op posted for support.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

I disagree with a lot of that, obviously, but a little bored of going around in circles. I will just say:
the general opinion on here being that people can irreversibly change their gender and then regret it" there is not a single person here who believes you can change sex" Which is why in the aforementioned quote from me I am distinctly referring to changing gender and not biological sex.

• I changed to sex as I assumed that was what you meant. As I have never seen anyone on mn say that "you can irreversibly change gender and regret it." What with a large chunk acknowledging that gender is not a tangible thing.

[respecteachother]

TheCountessofFitzdotterel :
Dysphoria is down to wanting to physically change body parts that you see as being the wrong gender for you and I never said that wasn't the case. You however cannot tell me that the way we're conditioned throughout our lives and people telling others they have to have (or not have) certain things to be a man or woman isn't a key reason behind that feeling because we've never lived in a society where that isn't the case.

BeyondVulvaResistance:

1. You are being bigots, I'm not comparing. Bigotry is about intolerance, a lot of you are implying that if you were born a boy, you can't be a woman etc. Maybe you're not out being violent towards trans people but words can be equally harmful in their own way.
   
2. That statement is nothing to do with equality between genders. When I say being seen a certain way I don't refer to being seen as more or less superior. Society is not gender blind, there are expectations of women and men. Women being seen as inferior is a whole different ball game but it's nothing to do with that statement.
   
3. "the general opinion on here being that people can irreversibly change their gender and then regret it" there is not a single person here who believes you can change sex" Which is why in the aforementioned quote from me I am distinctly referring to changing gender and not biological sex.
   
4. Yes because that actually happens. Parents lose their children. Not their daughter, not their son, just their child . It really happens. That's why this thread makes me so upset. You're all parents and some child's mental health could rely to a large extent on you.
   
5. "Banning a child from outside influences is a good thing" Oh dear, what so you can force your own opinions on that child instead? I understand that statement if your child is hanging around with a load of criminals but the LGBT community doesn't hurt anyone and they're representative of more than 10% of the real world. Maybe we just completely differ in opinion here but I feel like the more different viewpoints and opinions we see the more well rounded we become. Allow your child to find themselves rather than making them into a mini version of you. If this child seems 'obsessed' with their lgbt support group has anyone considered trying to get that child involved in a larger range of hobbies instead of cutting they off from the main support they have?
   

LadyStarkOfWinterfell: Gender identity and sexuality are both completely relevant actually. Many people believe they were born feeling male or female and have always been attracted to a certain gender/genders but also many people feel that their gender and sexual identity change throughout their lives. So for some both gender and sexuality feels innate however for others it feels more fluid throughout life.

BeyondVulvaResistance: Transgender rights don't take anything away from anyone else either... unless of course you are transphobic. Milpool has a good point.

LumpySpacedPrincess: Race is race, age is age, height is height. These are all physical characteristics that shouldn't have to mean anything else. If you're born with a vagina you can't go back and change that even with surgery later in life. Sex and gender are completely different. Gender is an anomaly as it is the way you feel inside and there is no real equivalent for any of those other things you mentioned. In reality transgender men feel like men. They aren't lying to themselves. They want to be seen, and see themselves as they feel. Maybe you disagree with me here but I think that's completely okay.

[OlennasWimple]

Rachel Dolezal was widely ridiculed for stating she identified as black. Mind you, that was a couple of years ago now, wonder if she would have had the same reaction these days

[LumpySpacedPrincess]

No other civil rights movement involves entering a state of cognitive dissonance and denying reality. Black people are persecuted because they are black, women are persecuted because they are women, These are biological realities.

If men can become women then I take it we can also become trans black, or trans tall, or trans 12 year old?

[Stopmakingsense]

Perhaps in some cases the difficulty in social functioning is so severe that transition is an appropriate treatment.
But surely that must be in very rare instances? And if an individual has a pre existing difficulty with social functioning - like ASD - then surely that must be the main focus of treatment first?

[milpool]

Gender dysphoria is a difficulty of social functioning.

Funny then, LadyStark, how societies throughout history have recognised more than two genders, or that transition can be made.

Beyond I dunno, racists and homophobes would probably beg to differ.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

Plus gay/black rights didn't take anything away from anyone else...

[LadyStarkOfWinterfell]

Gender identity/transgenderism is not the same as gay rights, or civil rights. Being gay or being black is innate. Everyone has a sexuality, and an ethnicity. They are determined at birth. Not everyone has a gender identity and they are not determined at birth. Gender dysphoria is a difficulty of social functioning.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

1. You clearly don't know much about transactivism to compare us to bigots
   
2. "the thing making life more difficult for gender non-conforming people is people like you. People telling them that they have to be seen a certain way by society because of how they were born." I think you missed the feminism memo
   
3. "the general opinion on here being that people can irreversibly change their gender and then regret it" there is not a single person here who believes you can change sex
   
4. More suicide blackmail
   
5. Banning a child from outside influences is a good thing
   

I'm on my phone, this is a crap written post, but the jist is there

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

'Ultimately trans people want to be seen (by both themselves and society) as "a man" or "a woman" the reason this equates to surgery is because it's engrained into everyones brains that female genitals & physical characteristics = woman and male genitals & physical characteristics=man '

For someone supposedly an expert, you also don't know very much about dysphoria.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

Sorry, that offended me and threw me, and I will respond to the rest of the post in a minute.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

"Your child's condition"
Condition?!
Do you think that is an appropriate way to refer to a variety of neurodiversity that many people on this thread have said they have?

Considering you're so 'right on' and everyone else is comparable to homophobes, you'd think you'd know better.

[respecteachother]

Some of the comments in this thread made me really angry.

"I am genuinely scared of trans activism and what it is doing to young people." Just like homophobic people were scared of the LGBT movement, like racists were scared of the civil rights movement, and like sexists were afraid to give women the vote?

You need to open your mind and see that the thing making life more difficult for gender non-conforming people is people like you. People telling them that they have to be seen a certain way by society because of how they were born. Most gender queer and transgender people just want to be seen as the gender they feel inside, especially by those they love. Maybe some feel they need the surgery and hormones but, (especially with bottom surgery) that's largely down to people like you lot who equate a biological male sex to "being a man" and vise versa.

Ultimately trans people want to be seen (by both themselves and society) as "a man" or "a woman" the reason this equates to surgery is because it's engrained into everyones brains that female genitals & physical characteristics = woman and male genitals & physical characteristics=man

Despite the general opinion on here being that people can irreversibly change their gender and then regret it I know that trans individuals have to go through a rigorous process of psychological assessment and then a long waiting period before they even have access to any hormones or surgery. As a result those who do regret transitioning are extremely, extremely rare. On the other hand the number of trans people we'd have lost to suicide if these options weren't available to them would be a far larger number.

Op listen to your child, is they want to be seen as male then treat them that way, the way you treat them doesn't involve any irreversible change. If your child then decided tomorrow that they've changed their mind no harm would have been done. On the other hand without your support regardless of how things end up your relationship will be damaged, but you have even more than that to lose if your child becomes depressed due to the lack of support from you. If your child wants to see someone support them, no doctor is going to give your child anything irreversible without a lot of steps being taken to make certain it is the right thing. Your child's condition and the links that condition has with gender identity will no doubt be taken into account as well.

Also to the mum who's banned your child from the LGBT group and the internet as if LGBT support groups are some kind of cult. Please stop. You're damaging your child and your relationship with that child more than any youth group ever could.

[confusedBUTtrying]

LadyStarkOfWinterfell We haven't made them forbidden fruit, we've asked if she will take a break from them until September to give her time to think clearly. It sounds like a long time, but with the amount of time she's away visiting family who know nothing atm over the summer and she's going to be helping me with decorating the house, she won't really be missing them as she'll be too busy.

With her hair she can't make up her mind. One day she wants it left long, with the fringe in her eyes and the bottom of it dying red, the next she wants it cut to her shoulders with no dye and the fringe out of her eyes, then she wants it long again with no dye but the fringe cut, then maybe a pixie style cut. She can't make up her mind hence delaying the decision.

The clothing we're compromising with. I'm not buying the suit yet as I'm on a low income so don't have the money to go out and buy one when I have school uniform for September to pay for yet and her shoes alone are about £70 as she's so hard on them. She already lives in jeans, trainers, hoodies and a baseball cap. She also has mens shirts, but she hasn't worn them since she stopped going to the group.

The break is so that we can try and show her other things out there. I want to show her that she can be female but not be into make-up, fashion, selfies and devote her life to the latest celebrity/reality show. I want to show her that there are women like her out there in the world making a difference despite all the things she hates about being female.

The binding issue is a sore point with her. Unfortunately she's cursed with an ample chest (just like me) which I don't think helps matters. However trying to get her to shop for a plain white (or as near as possible) sports bra for her to wear under her school blouse is almost impossible. I can look online, but she doesn't want me to measure her, and she's still wearing bras I bought for her 2 years ago so the size has washed out so I can't even use them as a guide!

BeyondCymru Thank you for the link. It looks like its going to be interesting reading and I've emailed it to her dad as well. From what I've read it seems to be sharing a similar view to me. Now I just need to find time to sit and do some reading!


One more relatively small issue now is what to do with all the stuff she cleared out of her room a couple of weeks ago as it was "too girly". Its currently in boxes in my bedroom ready to go to the charity shop, and I need the pile of stuff to go (not all of it is hers, but about 15 boxes take up a lot of space, not to mention black bin bags of bedding and clothing) but I also don't want to get rid of it all in case she changes her mind and wants it back.

[BeyondCymru]

I agree with lady stark on the suits and hair (though with you on the binding - she could wear a suit without binding though).

[BeyondCymru]

confused

Can I recommend to both of you btw, www.transgendertrend.com
It is a site written by parents of trans children who are wary of the extremely pro trans narrative at present.

[LadyStarkOfWinterfell]

I think you're right to limit the online influences but be careful you don't make it 'forbidden fruit'
I think you're making a mistake by not letting her cut her hair and wear suits , they aren't important and hardly the hill you want to die on when you've a child talking about major cosmetic surgery and lifelong hormones and infertility. Let her dress and present how she wants but try to interest her in other things/ people. She's found a subculture and she wants to be part of it. Hopefully she can be diverted elsewhere.

[confusedBUTtrying]

My 15 year old daughter has recently come out as a whole host of things including transgender. She's always been a tom boy, preferring trousers to skirts and got on better with boys, but this is a whole other level which I'm struggling to deal with. I'm not sure if its just a phase while dealing with all the normal teenage anxiety things, or if this really is who she is. I remember going through a confused phase when I was around her age, but I'm as "normal" (for want of a better word) as it comes for a 30 something who isn't a girly-girl. I've also always got on better with males than females.

She was attending a LGBT support youth group (I let her go as she told me it was to support a friend who was bisexual, then her whole life started revolving around the LGBT community) and her facebook account was filled with pages relating to it. Her friendship group is mainly made up of people 'on the spectrum' and all she seemed interested in was whatever was going on around the world relating to LGBT. She has a habit of immersing herself in things so I have stopped her going to the group until September which was obviously encouraging due to it being a support group. I've banned the internet except for homework (which with it being the end of the school year appears to be non-existent), I've been through her Facebook and removed all the LGBT pages/groups/and the support group who was a friend. Its not that I don't want her to have the support, but I just want her to step back and look at things without the stuff being rammed down her throat every time she logs in.

Her dad is in the picture although he doesn't live with us (and hasn't for a number of years) and is being as supportive as possible. He too is knocked for six, especially as she confided in me long before she told him and I felt this is one thing where I couldn't go against her wishes and tell him. We both agree that we suspect this could be a phase, and she may well grow out of it, but we also are doing our best to be there and support her without encouraging her just in case she is actually transgender.


We have been in to school to speak to them about what's happening with support there. I'm a little uncomfortable with the amount of support and 'encouragement' the school appear to be giving those pupils who are saying they are LGBT. They have a support group run by the pupils (and due to my daughters age she is one of the leaders now), but facilitated by the Child Protection Officer who said she just sits there and lets them talk about things and only interjects if they cross a line they shouldn't. They are a little too accepting of the self-diagnosis, and from what I've heard don't get the pupils to question whether its right or not. I know providing support is important, but surely they should also be getting the pupils to ask why they feel this way etc?

We sat down and discussed things with her. We pointed out that even if she was to go down the route of transitioning to male, biologically her DNA would still be female. If she wants to cut her hair, wear mens clothes, then fine. Rather than binding we'd rather she wore a sports bra instead as it'll still reduce her bust, but will support her and be less likely to cause permanent damage if she decides she doesn't want to do it any more. We explained that hormone treatment is only given after lengthy counselling to make sure she was 100% sure, and how she would have to live as a man for some time before they would consider surgery. However if she was to start taking the hormones then there is the possibility of it causing irreversible damage to her body if she decided in 10 years she was actually female. I offered to make her an appointment at the GPs to get the ball rolling with the counselling from a specialist in LGBT things if she was sure, but she burst into tears and said she didn't want that as she doesn't want to be treated differently. (Which adds to the "it's a phase" list).

We have asked her to not have her hair chopped short before her final school photos in September then she can have it chopped if she wants, but it will be a hairdresser job! I cut it for her at the minute as I'm not willing to pay £10 a time to have her fringe trimmed every 3 weeks. She's insisting on a binder and wearing a suit to prom. I've said I'm not doing anything prom related until much closer to the time. I am not paying out for a suit now when in 6 months time she may be more comfortable with herself and want to wear a dress like the other girls as she can look stunning in one.

I'm really not sure what to do about things. I've ordered some books online which I'm hoping will help both myself and my daughter work through this. I've sent the links to her dad so he's informed as well. I'm still waiting for them to arrive so I won't recommend them just yet. I have a feeling its going to be a case of wait it out and see what happens.