Talking to teenage boys about sex. Impossible, isn't it?

[slambang]

All the books say 'be open with your teenager, listen non judgementally, try not to be shocked when they tell you stuff.'

Tell you stuff? How the bloody hell do you get boys to do that???

I tried to drop into a (relevant) conversation while washing up with ds (15) my attitude about respecting girls. (In a nutshell: If she says no she means no. If she says maybe she means no. If she says yes then you still have enough respect for each other to think carefully if it's a good idea or not for you both.)

Ds was mortified! Shut up mum shut up! Stop talking to me about it! I know that already, what do you think I am? Are you calling me a rapist?! Stop talking about this PLEASE!!

How on earth does a good old-fashioned feminist mum ever get the chance to instil a few values? Dh says by setting an example, but our dcs don't exactly see our example in that aspect of life. Anyone managed better?

I'm of the "a friend..." conversation, or talking about something in a film or TV prog.
It has to be removed to a certain state on anonimity for them not to just curl up and die on the spot. If you remove the 'personal' (either "accusing" them or retelling your own experience ) then the conversations are more likely to be two way.

My mum didn't have any personal assault stories to tell me. She did however use the story of my assault as an example of something or other during a lesson at the school we both attended. Whatever anyone does, don't do that!

She claimed afterward that she didn't think anyone would know it was about me as she had apparently said 'one of my daughters' forgetting that I was the only daughter who attended that school. Grr (luckily the assault had actually happened several years before and I hadn't told her at the time so I was just angry not upset).

Anyway personal examples are I think fine when they are a)funny and b)have no negative emotion attached.

Humour works. I have given DS the Rules, and they go something like this:

1. No raping (we have had many long conversations about no meaning no, about yes being able to turn to no at any point in the proceedings, making sure he looks after his female friends, not putting himself in situations where either or both people might make bad decisions etc).

1. No hitting. Ever.

1. Be safe. In all respects, at all times.

I think for boys ; you are as responsible for contraception as the girl.

and for girls similarly don't be stupid enough to go without contraception at all because of his preference.

OMG Nooka thats terrible did she apologize?

I spoke to ds the other night about sex, respect and contraception. Gave examples, saying I'd read them on mumsnet.

I work in schools teaching Sex and Relationship education and I use an approach that might work with older teens.

With 11-14ish the young people still want to talk about it. Even though we get the occasional "I know it all" response, generally they don't honestly believe they know it. They are more willing to talk about it.

With 15+ teenager I regularly hit the wall of "Your too late we already know everything, more then you!" and the delightful 6th formers especially believed this. Our normal approach kept failing. So now when ever I get asked to do any work with this age group I take a different approach. I ask them to help me with a research programme; asking them to tell me their opinions on what I should teach the 11-14s. "What do you wish you had been told at their age?" "What issues do you think need answering earlier?" "What advice would you give?" "what topics do you think we need more information on?" Then I cant stop the older teens talking. Through their conversation I can gently lead discussion and input information and attitudes.

For example i ask "What should a 13 year old caught watching porn be told"
The 6th formers go through a wide range of responses and bring up maybe "it's not as good as the real thing" or "girls in real life never seem as keen". I can then follow up asking "Do you think 13 year olds need to hear that porn is fake? In what ways is it fake?" "Do you think the porn actresses really enjoy it as much as the show or is it fake as well" The conversation can go on an on and sometimes round in circles.

But by taking the focus off the teens personal sexuality and asking them to give their wisdom from their years of experience I have found older teens more willing to talk. So could the same approach work in family situations. "What do you think I should tell your younger brother/sister?" "What do you think they should teach in primary school? how about in year 8?". The approach might not work for everyone but I have found that once a teen starts talking its easier to keep it flowing.

Sorry girls - I've got to burst this bubble... this is not your job.

Mothers talking to their teenage sons about sex, the moral landscape therein and all that comes with it - Hmmmm.... You've all missed or forgotten something really basic. No teenage boy wants to think of his mother as a woman who has sex, who has ever had sex, knows about sex, thinks about sex or has even heard about sex. The very last thing on earth he wants is his mother actually TALKING about sex. Horrid, disgusting - EEK !
There is simply no more revolting thing for a teenage boy than his mother and sex in the same sentence.

Conversely, boys WANT to learn about sex from their fathers or other male role models.

It's Dad's job to sort this out (from early on) and if he isn't around (or an arse) then it's the job of Uncle Pete, the friendly neighbour or anyone else who can take him fishing, to the pub, to football or just engage with him over a game of chess. The "how to be a decent bloke" thing can't be done by a woman if it's to stick and have any resonance. It has to be a respected male role model who lets your teenage son know that "no" means "no" and exactly why, who teaches him to be decent, who can be there (in his head) as a model and as a moderator of behaviour.

"I wouldn't treat my Mother like that" doesn't really work when it comes to male teenage sexual behaviour because there's no reference point but "Dad / Uncle Pete / friendly neighbour wouldn't treat a girl that way" really does.

MiniMonty -- what a load of bollocks.

A child who entertains an ideal view of his mother as a non sexual being is already skewed in his thinking about sex and women. I shall be getting Uncle Pete to shatter that misconception as a matter of priority.

Agree - excellent post by Blind.
Totally disagree with Minty though. My (16yr old) ds and I have always chatted. He and his Dad just don't. There's no way in a million years he'd open up to his Dad about anything he was worried about or even wanting to sort out his own feelings about.

Have to disagree with Minty... to say only man can speak to a teenage lad about sex is just stupid. Plenty of boys grow up into decent men without having a male role model to teach them about these things - it often comes down to mum/gran/auntie to do the awkward discussions.

I am however a bit put off by the number of posters mentioning the 'if a girl says no, she means no' conversation. I mean first of all if you have raised your DC with any morals at all they should know this is the case, if they don't believe this to be the case then telling them at age 14/15 is too late anyway.

Secondly, why has no one mentioned the reverse situation; boys can and do get pressured into sex before they are ready too. Rape/sexual assault/coercion can go both ways. Don't forget to tell them that there is nothing un-macho about not being ready for a full on sexual relationship and saying no is fine....

Interesting. I think I started this thread because although I don't agree with Minty (I want to be able to chat to my dss about sex without them cringing with repulsion),in fact what she describes is what happens in our family - my boys would prefer me to pretend to know nothing about sex and to have produced them by immaculate conception.

I agree with Lurking's point too. Of course you can't suddenly introduce the 'No means no' idea at the age of 15. It's a build up over years of teaching about respect. (thinking about years of sibling arguments - if your brother said stop tickling him he meant it even if he was laughing). But I do think it's a point worth addressing in specifically sexual context as well. There's so many bloody terrible mixed messages out there in society about girls 'asking for it' (even high court judges ffs ) that I want my boys to at least hear my take on it.

Talking of using the news, ds2 (13) and I had an interesting converstaion about Megan Stammers this morning. Ds2 couldn't really understand why there was a problem .

Blindfish - love your approach too.