Violent DSD

[OrchardBeginning]

My DSD is 17 and I've been with her Dad for 10 years ago. She's always been good on the whole but with an angry side and we've had ups and downs. I have 3 young children with her Dad and she's always been nice to them, not super close but nice enough. Tonight however one of the little ones (5yrs old) was being a bit annoying asking what DSD was doing and trying to get involved (DSD was taking selfies) and DSD was ignoring her. DD hit DSD on the arm as she was getting frustrated at being ignored, I was about to swoop in and tell DD off but before I could DSD turned and smacked DD across the shoulder so hard it's left a bright red mark / bruise. For context I know what DD did was wrong, but it was a small tap/hit on the arm trying to get attention.

Both me and her Dad shouted at DSD asking what she thought she was doing and she absolutely flipped - swearing, saying we always take DDs side, that DD bullies her (?!) and was slamming doors, banging on walls. Awful. DD was in tears, the other little ones were crying and now they're all scared of her.

I really don't know what to do. She's gone home now as we have EOW contact and it's over for the weekend. I don't want her back here in our house when could do that to a 5yr old. I don't really have that choice though do I so what happens now? Thanks for any advice.

[Ledkr]

mn madness at its finest is suggesting a teenager is ostracised from her family for one incident.
Of course she is wrong and I woukd go mad but it's a total over reaction to split the whole family over this.
pretty if one of your dc hit the younger one in the future, are you seriously saying you would kick her out and ban her from your home?
There needs to be a serious discussion and some stern warnings and good adult supervision to ensure that this is a one off and never happens again.

[PrettyBrightFireflies]

if one of your dc hit the younger one in the future, are you seriously saying you would kick her out and ban her from your home?

If my near-adult DC assaulted a younger child in my home, I would not minimise it and protect them from the consequences of their actions.
The teen board, sadly, regularly contains posts from parents whose teens are violent in the home. The advice is to protect younger members of the family and ensure that the teen is held to account.

It may have been a moment of poor judgement on the OPs DSD part, and the 5 year old concerned did not behave well.
But the fact remains that a 17 year old hit a younger child with such force that a mark remained the next day.
Both DCs should be held accountable for their actions but that does not mean that the consequences for each are the same - the consequences for 17 year old are, unfortunately, more severe and may be life long.

[anklebitersmum]

I am certainly not suggesting minimising and trust me there would be consequences all over the place for the teenager, who I agree, should both have known and behaved better.

Throwing her out of the family, leaving 'but being cross' every time she visits her Dad and generally holding it over her like a sword of Damocles is equally, if not more abusive in my opinion I'm afraid.

[Ledkr]

Who is minimising it? Certaunly not the op and that's what matters in this case.
Tbh I would rip my teen a new arsehole but my point, which you seem to be avoiding, is that I would not exile the older child from my/her home and family as was suggested initially.
It is an over reaction and could potentially life long damage to all parties.

[Ledkr]

The consequences for 17 year old are, unfortunately, more severe and may be life long

I'm glad that stuff I did at 17 didn't have "life long consequences"

Irrational or what.

[PrettyBrightFireflies]

My point is, in this case, the OP cannot 'rip her DSD a new arsehole' or make sure there are 'consequences all over the place'.
She has no influence over the teen - she's not a parent.

the OP could call the police, she could do nothing and hope her DCs are not at risk or she can take steps to protect her DCs from it happening again.

If she does nothing and another one of her DCs is hurt by her teenage DSD, would she be considered negligent for not protecting them from a known risk?

[anklebitersmum]

She does 'have influence'. She is the teens Step-Mum, lives in the house, is married to the teen's Father and is more than entitled to set boundaries and restrictions in her own home.

And even if, on MN she's not allowed because she's 'just' a step-mum, her husband, who's ear she will undoubtedly have, certainly is.

[PrettyBrightFireflies]

I'm glad that stuff I did at 17 didn't have "life long consequences

I'm glad for you too. But by the time you are 17, poor life choices do have life long consequences in a way that they don't for 5 year olds.
Protecting a 17 year old from the consequences of their choice by excusing violence within the home is not good parenting, imo

[PrettyBrightFireflies]

And even if, on MN she's not allowed because she's 'just' a step-mum, her husband, who's ear she will undoubtedly have, certainly is.

The fact that the OP is considering how she can protect her DCs (by removing them from the DSD presence) indicates that she isn't confident that her DHs response is sufficient to protect them.

[anklebitersmum]

OP says her initial reaction is that she doesn't want her back in her house every other weekend and also stated that her DH was also upset and horrified at his DD's actions.

So there is plenty of opportunity to parent this situation effectively and resolve it rather than make it the reason a child is emotionally excluded by her father and his family.

[Wdigin2this]

Orchard, you did actually say in your OP, that both you and your DH shouted at the teen! I'm not criticising because it was a knee jerk reaction to the shock of seeing your child hurt, but it naturally upset your DSC who retaliated with embarrassment and anger, because she knew she'd done wrong and because she didn't know how to handle it! I'm also not saying that this is acceptable behaviour, but I think your best bet is to both get around a table for a 'family discussion' with the teen and the 5 yo, to explain that hitting anyone is unacceptable and won't be tolelated in your home, get the girls to apologise to each other, and you two apologise for shouting and make matters worse. Of course you're going to have to do it in an age appropriate manner for both of them, but I'm sure you know your DC well enough to do that! Finish off with a firm line under the matter and cuddles all round!

[Ledkr]

CALL THE POLICE?
Are you mad?

[PrettyBrightFireflies]

ledkr If the OPs DD disclosed at school that the mark she has on her arm was caused by her 17 year old DSSister (or parent or any other adult) hitting her, it would be a safeguarding matter that would involve the police.

No, I'm not mad.

[Ledkr]

Not necessarily.
It would very much depend. The police, if involved at all would pretty quickly leave it in the hands of social care who would certainly not react by demanding the teenager be banished from the family home for just one misdemeanour.

[Whatthefreakinwhatnow]

Bloody hell, this thread is ridiculous!

You can't segregate the older girl based on one incident! Yes, it was wrong, no it shouldn't have happened, yes she needs a bollocking, but talking about keeping her away from her siblings and calling the Police is just ridiculously out of proportion.

Talk about a brilliant way to make the non-resident child feel even more of an outsider in what is meant to be her home!

Whilst it's not nice, let's get this injury in perspective - it's a mark/bruise, she's not maimed or disfigured, so I really can't see the school calling the police either, ffs.

What this family needs is a talk about personal space and the importance of not pestering and mithering others.

The eldest daughter has been told it's not acceptable, so should apologise to the younger child and make assurances it won't happen again.

That then should be the end of the matter, I wouldn't want resentment to build between the children.

I'm sure the teen is suitably shamed and nothing like that would ever happen again anyway, and hopefully the younger child now realises it's not nice to pester or hit others either.

[PrettyBrightFireflies]

who would certainly not react by demanding the teenager be banished from the family home for just one misdemeanour.

Well, of course not - even the OPs subsequent posts have acknowledged that, and I certainly don't believe that is possible, anyway.

But, the OP does have a responsibility to protect her young DCs. Parental anger, a stern talking too, expectation that she should not do it again is not, imo, sufficient consequence for a 17 year old in this situation.
Involvement of professional authorities is the officially recommended route (in my area at least) for teens when they commit assault, irrespective of the victim. It provides a gateway to services that can provide support and advice.

However, if the OP is unwilling to involve the authorities against the will of her DH, then preventing unsupervised contact between the younger DCs and their DSSister seems eminently sensible until the OP can be assured that they are safe. Their protection from harm is a greater priority than protecting the DSD from lasting consequences of her action.

What if the DSD does lash out again? Then what? If leaving a lasting mark on a young DCs arm isn't sufficiently serious to seek intervention for this teen then what type of injury would it be necessary for her to inflict in order for you to consider it acceptable for the parents to concede that they can't deal with it alone?

[PrettyBrightFireflies]

Whilst it's not nice, let's get this injury in perspective - it's a mark/bruise, she's not maimed or disfigured, so I really can't see the school calling the police either, ffs.

Parents have been prosecuted for assaulting their DCs and marking their DCs in that way.

[SevenOfNineTrue]

While what the 17 year old did was completely unacceptable, you should have stopped your DD from constantly bugging her older sister.

[Whatthefreakinwhatnow]

pretty, it was a sibling squabble that got put of hand, it does not require intervention from outside agencies! The 17 year old cannot be labelled a danger to her siblings based on 1 incident. How unfair to write a child off based on one moment of poor behaviour. How would you feel if your child's father remarried and it was your child in this situation? Would you say they are a violent child, throw the book at them?!

[plumpynoo]

Well, there certainly seems to be mixed opinions on this! At risk of being flamed, i think the main problem here is that the OP obviously feels that the incident may not just be a one off (DSD has previous form for angry outbursts) and also is not confident of her partner addressing this properly. This is typical of step situations! I think if dsd was the OP's own child, she would have not only gotten shouted at, but also had consequences imposed, like loss of technology, grounding, ect. The problem is, with a step child you cant impose consequences because they just go home! Why could DSD not have just said to DD, i'm taking pictures, leave me alone? I cannot believe people defending the 17 (!) year old taking a swipe at a much younger child! I really feel for the OP, as i know that if i was in that situation it would cause huge arguments with my husband about contact and how to deal with it, and i too may end up saying that she is not welcome in my home if no appropriate response to it could be found. I guess i am displaying "mn madness" but i am protective of my children when other children get rough, let alone a near adult who is in their home. And before everyone says it, it is not DSD's home too, as she is old enough to have a choice whether to go there, and has somewhere else to go if she is unhappy for any reason. The OP's children have no choice but to have a possibly violent adult sized person in their home, and no child should be frightened in their own home. Hope you can get this sorted OP.

[PrettyBrightFireflies]

How would you feel if your child's father remarried and it was your child in this situation?

I would expect her to be held to account in an age appropriate way and would ensure that happened if her dad didn't.
Holding a DC to account does not 'write them off' - far better that they are taught the natural consequences of their actions in a safe, family environment than when they behave inappropriately in wider society. Hitting small children is morally, socially and legally unacceptable, and if the parent has failed to reach their DC that lesson by the time the DC is 17 years old then they should concede that they need help to do so.

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

Lots of interesting comments! It does show how difficult it is in a step parent situation, if nothing else.

It is so hard to comment without knowing more about the context. Maybe the right thing is to have reacted calmly but very firmly, maybe there is a sense of chaos in the household without clear lines if the DP isn't handling things well. Maybe the 17 year old does need a severe shock as a punishment if there is a risk that this will happen again. I really don't know. However it just shows how hard it is to handle things well, but how important it is too. So tricky!

[Whatthefreakinwhatnow]

Being held accountable does not mean reporting het to the Police though does it!

It's clearly only me then that recognises that little children are supremely annoying to older ones and it's perfectly possible to just snap through provocation, and that this doesn't mean the beginning of an entrenched pattern of violence, it's just a moment of madness.

If I was the OP, I'd explain to DSD thst I was disappointed, ask her to apologise, get the younger one to apologise also and make her understand it's not acceptable to pester or hit people, and that would be the end of the matter.

[Canyouforgiveher]

Lots of interesting comments! It does show how difficult it is in a step parent situation, if nothing else.

Agree. It also shows how difficult it is to be in a step child situation. I don't believe for one moment that anyone advocating calling the police would do the same if their own 17 year old hit their 5 year old full sibling in these exact circumstances. Not for a moment. Same with the "ban her from the house" advice. It just wouldn't happen and I think if this situation was between full siblings you'd be getting a lot more of "is this a one-off?/is she under pressure at school/take away her phone and explain she behaved appallingly" advice and way less of the police and safeguarding talk.

This is not a violent teen in the house situation - it is one-off very bad behaviour from a 17 year old which needs to be dealt with firmly.

[Whatthefreakinwhatnow]

Finally canyou, a voice of reason!