Extra access with out checking

[Sorrybutilikekatie]

Ok well maybe checking isn't the word but I'm not sure how else to put it.

I have been living with my dp for 6 months and I see us as a team ie I don't plan things with out saying " oh on Saturday im going to do this is that ok" just out of courtesy really. Plus he work shifts so time together is limited

Anyway my dp has three children from his marriage and we have them every Sunday for a sleep over. Twice so far he has taken the children on extra nights one bring NYE (our first as a real couple) and now on Valentine's days. I'm really annoyed as Valentine's Day is a big deal to me (sad I know) but I like to take the time to make it nice and romantic even if it's just a pizza and a movie.

I'm totally new to this whole step children thing and I feel totally out of depth.

Am I being a brat? Or is it something that would annoy you too?

[Sethspeaks]

My eldest (now 19) voted with her feet and it's done her the world of good. She's less angry, more settled, doing well on life. It's contact with her Dad and partner that can upset the apple cart. And he and his partner LOVE to blame me for that, and for him seeing less of my youngest. It simply isn't the case. His partner would rather none of us were around, and he colludes with that by blaming me for his lack of contact. It's that thing of one finger being pointed at me and 3 back at themselves.

But that's just my situation. There are so many different dynamics in all our situations, the choices people make, the reactions we have because of who we are, the reactions others in our dynamics have. It's really not quite so straightforward as mum just needs to force them to go, and she's not acting in their best interests of if she doesnt support it.

Again I agree with Caorunn about not hiding feelings. That doesn't mean badmouthing their Dad or trying to turn them against him. It means giving them the opportunity to express what emotions they are feeling, rather than having those feelings and having to hide them because I am pretending it's all hunky dory with their Dad.

[redredholly]

It sounds like your eldest had a correct moral response Caorunn but that is not always the way. My eldest DSD did exactly what your DD did at 14 (now older teen) and stopped seeing her dad (my DH) and refused to take his calls, etc. Her mum has never been upset about their split / lost weight / stopped work etc. as it was she who was the serial adulterer, and now she is happier than ever with a steady stream of boyfriends / her ideal worklife etc. However she is also quite bitchy and seems not to be able to be cordial with my DH having 'rejected' him, and this affects her children. I think she is angry that he moved on and doesn't beg her to come back. My DSD made an incorrect 'walk with her feet', and now is stuck 100% with mum. Her mum seemed to need the ratification and supported rather than challenged DSD's decision ('that's why I couldn't stand to be around your dad either etc', 'he is so boring/conservative'). She isn't growing up well now, and perhaps if 'walk with your feet' hadn't seemed so much of an option / been supported she would now not be on drugs / failing school.

I know this isn't the same as your situation.

[PeruvianFoodLover]

caorunn - I'm afraid we may be at cross purposes or I'm being mistaken for someone else?

I don't think we've "discussed" this before and as far as I know, I don't have any "issues" in my current relationship (unless you know something I don't?) - I've always been open that I'm a former, rather then current, stepmum, but I post on this part on MN from the perspective of a mum whose DD has stepparents.
I know some people feel that means I have no reason to post here, but it helps me a great deal to see things from a different perspective.

I'm sorry if I've misled you in some way.

[Caorunn]

Peruvian -I do not lie, and, we have discussed this before (your posting style is very distinctive), there is plenty of evidence to support that approach. i will not build a framework of lies around my relationship to my daughter and lead her to feel further betrayal from those she should be able to trust. Your daughter was much younger if I recall correctly - well I am assuming so given the lengthy history you have in your current relationship and the issues you face there.

I see nothing wrong with showing emotions, good and bad, to children. It shows them that you can be hurt, sad, bewildered and that is okay. That you can and will recover. That it is okay to cry. That, even for adults, life can be shit. But it also shows them how time helps, how you can and will improve over time and and then life can be good again. If they don't see their parents modelling these behaviours where are they supposed to learn them and view them as a normal, healthy part of life?

My daughter refuses to participate in counselling which has been offered although I am not convinced she needs it it. As a general premise people (and I include young adults in that) are allowed to be angry, feel betrayed, change their perspective on people and life, redefine a relationship based on their growing experience, self of worth and social mores. You live and learn to deal with all these emotions and to suggest they are in someway so extraordinary or perhaps even wrong such that assistance is need to deal with them would do my daughter a disservice. She has no problem in expressing her view to either parent. Although imo I believe she is heard but not listened to by her father.

As to your reference that the reason for a divorce is superficial I so very much disagree. That tends towards 'victim' blaming - imo there is no multifaceted veneer which could ever excuse protracted emotional and physical infidelity. None. Someone who is prepared to do so is telling you something very loudly about who they are. They should not be surprised if that message is heard by many.

Finally please don't revert to your old trick of taking a snippet of a much longer nuanced post and building an argument around that - the paragraph from which you quote relates to the behaviours of my former husband and his partner hence the focus of particular sentence. There is nothing more to be read in to it.

[PeruvianFoodLover]

In their selfish actions they thought of none but themselves - well he had paid a high price in terms of his daughter.

It is she who has paid the price, not him.

Have you and her dad considered youth counselling, or even some family therapy, for her? My DD had external support when she was struggling; she was younger than yours when we split, and I avoided displaying my emotions about the situation in front of her, and explained away my time off work, weight loss etc.

It was his response to his guilt that she struggled to deal with, and I couldn't always protect her from that. But talking to an independent counsellor, and being supported to express her pov to both me and her Dad, helped her a great deal and she still has a positive relationship with both families.

She is older now, and we have talked about her experience back then. At the time, her perspective was that we had, as we had explained to her, grown apart. I doubt she will ever know the "truth" - because, like in all relationship breakdowns, it it's multifaceted and complicated.
The reasons cited for divorce are superficial - unless I am wiling to fully explain the background and context in which they occurred, there is no benefit in my DD knowing.

[Caorunn]

Lots of interesting points and yes sad stories, about the extreme ends of the spectrum and less than ideal behaviour from all of the adults involved. I am not going to comment on any of the specific because they were personal anecdotes and it is not my place.

My children may well not decide to talk with their feet in which case I can only assume they are okay with their situation and happy with the adults in; I do hope however that they view their dad in the same way as I describe him and or refer to him with them - that is a good dad, who doesn't love me any more but who still adores them. We are respectful in our interactions and unless they can read either of our minds I am fairly sure that is all they see. They are also aware that the OW and I will never be friends, that their dad knew her before he left and I feel both he & she treated me badly. They also know that as long as she is kind and treats them well (which I think she does) then of course that is fine. They are intelligent, emotionally well-balanced children. Who spend 50 per cent of their time with their father and will continue to do so as far as I can.

But the key exception to that is my eldest - she is 16, she was a real daddy's girl, had a far better relationship with her dad then she ever did with me. But at the point of his affair was 14 - she knows he had an affair, she asked me explicitly and I did not lie. She knows his current partner was the OW. She of course still loves her dad, thinks the OW is nice. She spent 18 months spending her time 50/50 with the two youngest. She hated it. She became increasingly miserable. She stopped contact for a month. It resumed after a lot of persuasion, effort and talking from me. It lasted 6 weeks. She now spends the majority of her time with me, with regular agreed contact with her dad.

I did everything in my power to support her and her father in maintaining the previous level of contact. But it came to the point where I wasn't going to 'force' her to stay somewhere she didn't want. Why didn't she want? Lots of reasons - some practical/some emotional. She hated living in two houses; she wanted to stay close to her friends, she wanted to relax in what she views as her home and her room. She didn't want to be - her words - paraded around the OWs family & friends. She resented the forced - and again her words - playing at happy families. She wanted to show support for me. She felt betrayed and angry with her dad. Not because of my actions or words; but she is a young adult, she saw me crying, she saw me lose a great deal of weight, she saw me take time of work (unheard off), she saw me sad. And she was pissed of with her dad. Her dad who was probably the most important person in her life let her down.

Is that the story that her dad and the OW will be telling? Do they accept that their actions had consequences for his relationship with his eldest daughter? Do they respect her views as a young adult? Not from what I can see. In their selfish actions they thought of none but themselves - well he had paid a high price in terms of his daughter. Do I hope my daughter and her dad's relationship recovers. I sincerely do. Am I responsible for it's breakdown - am I hell.

[Caorunn]

OP - I am sorry if you have taken my later posts as suggesting you had an issue with your stepchildren, although I did say explicitly that your issue was with your partner. The conversation had moved on from your original question and was talking about suggestion made, not by me, that if an ex does not accept that new partner then sometimes the stepmother becomes annoyed with /withdraws from with the children. I am fairly sure that wasn't directed at you by anyone. And apologies again if you post didn't refer to me - I did take it that it was, so felt then need to respond.

[sanityseeker75]

Sorrybutilikekatie I think the main thing here is to know that you absolutely allowed to feel fed up with your DH for just agreeing without talking to you first.

You may be new to SM thing but the fact that you have come onto a site like this to find out if your feelings are natural proves that you are a considerate wife and SM and just want the same treatment back. You will hear both sides of the argument and for what it is worth it is often useful hearing the other side of the argument just to gain perspective on what the mom may feel or even your DH.

But you have talked to him and he has agreed to try and that is all you can really hope for - you may have to keep nudging him in future but it is an excellent start.

[TheJingleMumsRush]

Some sad stories there. It's a shame when the one or all of the kids start seeing dad less and less. It's even worse when the mum does nothing to stop it and help the children. It will all come back to bite them in the arse in the end.

[Petal02]

They don’t actually know what is best for them at that age, and are not emotionally equipped to cope with the impact and consequences of their choices

You’re not kidding. DH’s daughter is now approx. 24 yrs old, he hasn’t really seen her in 9-ish years. They had a parent/teenager row about staying up late on school nights, DSD refused to see her Dad because of it, and the ex gleefully fanned the flames. She threatened to request increased mainteinance because DSD wasn’t spending any nights with her Dad, although she never went through with it. However the ex soon realised she’d shot herself in the foot, as she could no longer spend EOW solely with her ‘new children’ (that she’d had with her second husband). But the damage was done, DSD (encouraged by her mother) had sent vile letters to DH, called the police (!), and had made abusive phone calls to DH’s parents. The whole thing was a mess, and even if DSD had wanted to make up with her Dad, I suspect she was too proud/embarrassed to do so.

So fast forward 9 years, positions have become entrenched, DSD/DH had one awkward coffee meeting approx. 18 months ago, during which neither side knew what to say to the other, and that’s been about it (other than requests for money and threats over legal action). Whether this will ever change, I don’t know – but I’m sure that at age 15, DSD didn’t have all this in mind.

But rather than allow DSD to cease contact with her Dad, the ex should have been firmer with her, popped her in the car and driven her over, then things would have probably been resolved over the space of a weekend, rather than turning into a decade’s stand-off.

[WannaBe]

agree that at a young age children can't possibly comprehend the possible implications of their choices. Even adults get that wrong - how many threads on here do we see from people who have gone nc with a relative only to have doubts when that person is dying/has died and then not knowing how to act and it being too late because they've had no contact for years....

And of course as a parent it's difficult when you think your child is unhappy in a situation and you just want to tell them that of course they don't have to go and can stay with you instead, but at a young age that child is different to the adult they will become in years to come, so if e.g. a ten year old is permitted to not have a relationship with their father because they don't like the new setup, in eight years time when they're eighteen and an adult it's too late to undo the eight years of no contact when they were growing and developing into that young adult. They no longer known their father and the father has missed out on vital stages of their growing up

while I do believe that children have the right to voice their concerns and the things that make them unhappy, I also think that as adults it is up to us to guide them in terms of not making snap decisions which could have life long implications. And regardless of personal feelings, children should be encouraged to have a positive relationship with all the people who enter their lives, including step parents. Those step parents may be in their life for the next 50 years, may be parent to their future siblings, nobody benefits from a child being alienated from a stepparent .

[sanityseeker75]

They dont actually know what is best for them at that age and are not emotionally equipped to cope with the impact and consequences of their choices.

This with bells on. Voting with their feet works both ways. I have older DSS (with huge back story) who at 14 decided he no longer wanted to see his dad with any regularity. His mother backed his choice he sent his dad abusive messages advising he was binning sol letters and did not want contact - he was given that choice and it was supported by his mom who had her own agenda. Result 5 years later - a child/young adult who struggles to find his place in the family, he is bitter, jealous and resentful of his siblings(half) who were younger and had court ordered contact and is often jealous and abusive towards them and about them because his dad must care more for them (despite DH messaging throughout the years several times inviting him round whenever he wants and to various family meet ups etc. In fact when we went on holiday last year with the kids he told everyone who would listen that his dad would not give him the same money he spent on the others (he works) and that he was no longer part of the family. He is now in a position that his younger DB does not know him and finds him scary and his DS does not want contact with him because she is sick of listening to his bitterness - voting with his feet worked really well for him and everyone concerned.

On the other hand DSD has learnt that her mom co-parents with her dad when it suits but still believes that she is the one that has the ultimate power and has often said if the do not want to come they do not have to, she sent them several texts over Christmas telling them they could go home which in the end DSD did not reply to as she dd not want to upset her mom by telling her she was more than happy where she was. This Saturday she sat with us at dinner time telling us she had told her mom lots of times recently that she would walked out if her mom did not ease up and sleep on the streets if need be, but she knows she has a home with us. Voting with her feet may not work well for her mom (whilst I think this was probably just a teenage strop). Problem is in a "normal" family unit there is the option of streets or family member but often are forced to work the issue out with parents.

In blended if they think they can vote with their feet they may well do - without even a real reason just because they can but does this really help them be responsible adults that learn how to compromise and deal with issues that arise as part of everyday life?

[PeruvianFoodLover]

I'm not sure it's fair to place responsibility on a DC to "vote with their feet" in any event. They dont actually know what is best for them at that age and are not emotionally equipped to cope with the impact and consequences of their choices.

A few years ago, I employed a mid-teen who had been given the "choice" by the court as to whether or not to spend time with her NRDad. She knew that he wanted to see her, but also knew that her mum had been very hurt by his behaviour. I remember her sobbing on my shoulder that she wished the court had ordered she had to see him just like they had her younger sister - she wanted the adults in her life to protect her from the responsibility of hurtng one or other of her parents.

[Sorrybutilikekatie]

I'm so sick of you trying to make out that I am annoyed at the children. That couldn't be further from the truth I love my stepchildren.

[WannaBe]

caorran you say that your dc would vote with their feet. Thing is, you can't be absolutely sure of that.

If someone has a particular view of their ex/the incoming partner then it's easy to think that the children will ultimately see what you see and think the same. But thing is, the children have a different view of and relationship with the partner you are no longer married to, and as such they will make their own independent decisions. and it's also important to remember that the ex could have the same ideas and think that the children will ultimately see you in the same way he does and "vote with their feet." and thus children often get caught in the middle between two parents who they they have loyalty towards. (by saying "you" I am referring in general not to you specifically)

But, so often parents e.g. make derogatory comments about their ex to their children in the belief that the children will realise what they already know, and then take the decision to want to be with them instead, when actually all that generaly does is make the children bitter against the parent who waged war against their beloved mum/dad etc.

[TheJingleMumsRush]

The OP is annoyed at her DP for not running it buy her...she's not annoyed at the kids

[PeruvianFoodLover]

yes if my husbands partner's behaviour treatment of my children was intolerable / unkind them then yes I would expect my former husband to make a choice or indeed depending on her behaviour remove that choice for him.

Whether your DCs stepmums treatment is intolerable/unkind is subjective though, isn't it? What you decide is unreasonable, your DCs dad may consider is appropriate - but you'd "remove his choice", based on your (and your DCs) opinion.
You hold the "power" to dictate the level and nature of the interaction through your interpretation of her behaviour and willingness to undermine your ex's decision and judgement.

[Caorunn]

No I say that my children would choose to talk with their feet Peruvian and I would support them.

But actually yes if my husbands partner's behaviour treatment of my children was intolerable / unkind them then yes I would expect my former husband to make a choice or indeed depending on her behaviour remove that choice for him. Her treatment of my children is a very different thing to my placing constraints or dictating the level of her interaction (which was what was described up thread) - the two are very different things surely you can see that?

[PeruvianFoodLover]

caorunn you contradict yourself. On the one hand you say that a resident parent has no power or authority over the relationship between her ex and his spouse, and on the other you state openly that you would "remove his choice" as a parent to allow his spouse to be a part of your DCs lives if you disagreed with the way in which she interacted with them.

Whether you know it or not, you hold a great deal of power in your hands - the daily posts on MN are testimony to that.

[Caorunn]

And I get that Wannabe which is why I would think it but not say it. I am only human. But actually the stepparent is in a category all of their own to be honest - they are not a family friend, an aunt, a grandparent but the significant other of a parent in a child's life. The role of which was previously filled by, again let's say for consistency on this thread, the child's mother. It is a unique relationship and it would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Agreed needaholiday - but the bounds of her relationship with the stepchildren was something to be negotiated between her and her partner. The ex could insist or expect all she wanted but had no power, authority or a word used more than once on this thread agency within that new relationship.
The fault lies with the father who failed to agree a co-parenting model with his ex that worked for both him and his new partner.

[WannaBe]

the problem with thinking "why should the children be spending time with her/I be missing my children," does put the stepmum in a category of her own though, and that can never be seen as a positive thing. After all, when your dc are with their father would you have issue if they spent time alone with friends? family? (his) without him there? Because if not then having objections to them spending time with their stepmum paints her in a negative light which is based on your personal feelings rather than a reality.

I agree that the step parenting boards are full of posts about how hard it is to be a step parent, how the kids/the ex are making things so difficult when actually more often than not as someone said above it's the father (in most instances) who is the issue and being a disney parent/failing to discipline/failing to consider the reality of blending a family. I have unfortunately also seen it the other way around though where the new woman's children take precedence over their own children and they are pushed out in favour of their new family. It seems that middle ground is impossible to find.

And I wonder sometimes how much of the talk of the evil ex is real and how much is a projection by the dp and painting the ex as all evil means they don't need to face up to their own part in a previous split. Not always obviously, but it's clear that there are a lot of unhappy stepmums out there who are probably in the same unhappy relationships their step children's ex's left....

[Caorunn]

redredholly - there are lots of posts on here where stepmothers complain about taking on the children. Lots. Now that maybe due to the behaviour of the children (normally pretty standard stuff but I get hard to deal with if the child is not yours) or due to the partner. Or indeed sometimes because they have initially thrown themselves into the 'parent role' and find it is hard. Because it is. Not always because there is some evil ex in the background making life hell for them. That is an easy target - and actually we have come full circle from the OP. Yes she had a right to annoyed - but with her partner. Nobody else.

All these examples of stepparents helping their partner - great as it should be. But don't assume that the children's, let's say, mother is either aware or assume she should be thankful. You have all provided example's where you are helping you partner- what if he didn't have you there? He would need to step up and do it himself. You are making his life easier - not that of his ex. So why should she be grateful? Yes it may be easier for the children; but those same children may well cope very well when living with a 'single' parent who doesn't have someone else picking up the slack/helping/bailing out. And cope just fine.

I have never suggested, quite the contrary intact, that the stepmother should be hands-off - what I have said is that the extent to which she chooses to involve herself in 'family life' with her new partner and his children is up to her new partner and her. The ex has no say in that at all. So can't be expected to reflect in awe of her greatness surely? The example of the stepmother taking the child out for a drink and a comic - I would much rather they were spending that time with their father so no I wouldn't think ah, that's nice. I would think why the hell was I missing my children so they could spend time with their dad when he couldn't be arsed to do so.

antodayyourusernameis - you highlight quite well the difference between a stepmother and a mother - I do expect my needs to come secondary to my children in pretty much most cases and I expect my husband to apply the same priorities. Because that is how we worked as a family (well I thought we did, perhaps not clearly given the OW but anyway). You don't. I find that strange but I guess understandable if you are tolerating them in your life only because you want a relationship with their father.

Peruvian - your description of me as having an expectation of behaviour is quite pejorative - I think of it otherwise. I assume decent behaviour from people until they show me otherwise. I don't skip through life being grateful nor do I expect others to be grateful if I act as a decent reasonable human being. Because that is actually the least any of us should expect. It may surprise you but I am perhaps one of the softest, easy going, good humoured people you can meet - and it takes a great deal to piss me off. However treat me or my family poorly (my standards aren't unexceptionally high so it takes a great deal to so) and there is no return for me.

And I am not sure who commented on my former husband perhaps not choosing to leave the OW if she started treating the children poorly I don't give a monkey's if he does or doesn't to be honest but the choice of my children staying in that environment would be removed from him. They are all getting to an age however where they would choose to talk with their feet anyway I would imagine and I would fully support them in doing so - if she became intolerable. But again I fail to see why my relationship with her (which is nil btw we have no contact at all) should influence her treatment of my children; or more importantly the children of the man she professes to love and has put a great deal of effort into building a relationship with. To the extent of infidelity and helping to dismantle a family unit in the process.

[PeruvianFoodLover]

I can tell you that if I chose NOT to support my partner in being a parent it would make his life very difficult indeed.

Well, exactly. Wanting your DCs stepmum to be a passive, inconsiderate "housemate" while a NRP is parenting is an odd expectation to have.

It does happen; I've known a stepmum who had nothing more than a superficial "polite good morning at breakfast" relationship with her husbands DCs. But when she and her DH split, the DCs still suffered greatly - because that hands-on step-mum was paying for half the mortgage, groceries and utility bills at what the DCs and their mum considered to be their dads house. When stepmum moved out, the quality of life the DCs had with dad dropped significantly; downsized home, no sky TV, cold winters and no treats. And guess who was the first to complain? The DC mother; who had insisted that her DCs were kept at arms length from their dads "tart". Is it any wonder that their marriage failed when the message she was receiving loud and clear was that she wasn't good enough to have a relationship with her DSC, but she was expected to provide them with the lifestyle their parents expected.

Even a hands off stepmum facilitates their spouse to "parent" - and as this thread (and others) has proved, it is often a thankless and unwelcome contribution to the DCs lives.