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Incredibly stubborn DD with ASD (and possibly a little bit of PDA). Advice around uncooperative behaviour in school.

57 replies

craftyoldhen · 08/03/2017 22:56

DD has ASD. She is INCREDIBLY STUBBORN.

You can't tell her anything, you can't help her with anything, you can't give her advice, you can't get her to do something she doesn't want to do. Not for all the pokemon cards in England.

She will not budge, she is unmoveable. She will argue, she will cry, she will scream and growl until you give in. And everyone always gives in eventually.

Her uncooperative behaviour in school is getting worse. She refuses to do certain pieces of work or work with certain children. She refuses to acknowledge half the class (she totally blanks them).

Yesterday was parents evening. Her teacher told me that, amongst other things, DD refuses to correct her spelling mistakes because "they're not wrong" (they are). The teacher asks her to correct them, and then write them in her spelling book, but she won't. She just argues that they're not wrong, despite all the evidence to the contrary. When she argues she is rude - no rude language or anything but just lack of respect for a teacher type rude.

Apart from this DD is a quiet, bright, studious child. She doesn't get into trouble for her uncooperative behaviour or rudensss as it's seen to be part of her ASD. The teacher looked like she was at a loss TBH.

I'm not sure that letting DDs behaviour go unchallenged (or untreated) like this is the right thing to do.
I also know that punishing her really won't help either.
What's the advice for children like this?

Autism outreach have been involved but she wasn't helpful. She didn't seem to 'get' DD. She told the teacher to give DD a choice between 2 activities to help her feel like she was in control, but her teacher said DD would just refuse to do either of them. Other than that she just suggests visual timetables that don't help DD.

She's also in year 5 so I need to think about secondary schools this year. There is absolutely no way she will get away with this behaviour in secondary school is there? Sad

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craftyoldhen · 13/03/2017 16:48

The thing with giving her a dictionary and asking her to check her spellings is she wouldn't know where to begin i.e. Should she check every single word (even 'a' and 'the' - that would take too long), or just the ones that might be wrong (but in her head NONE of them are wrong). It's too vague.

Using a laptop and spell check is a good idea though, especially as she struggles with handwriting and hand fatigue/pain. I will ask about this.

She not the sulking type (I wish, at least sulking is quiet) she's the loud objecting, arguing, crying and screaming type. So inpossible to ignore! People often give in just to make the noise stop!
And rewards don't work when it's something she absolutely doesn't wasn't to do, I've tried that!

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mummytime · 13/03/2017 17:10

I didn't mean bribery - I mean rewards by doing what she wants or making the bad thing going away.

It could also be helpful to take the tasks apart, and try to see each part and see if that is the problem.
I'll try to explain: The teacher sets a task "Write an essay on trees"
This involves getting a set book out.
Picking up a pen.
Thinking of something to write.
Maybe doing some research.
Writing a first sentence.
Maybe making a first mistake.
Maybe seeing someone else finish first.
Maybe hearing other people talk....

Is it getting the book out? Is it the thinking? Is it research? Is it other people's research? Is it too quiet? Is it fear of having to redo it? Is it fear of being corrected? What about smells - the smell of a pen? The feel of a rubber? Someone else rubbing out? People sharpening pencils?
Is it just being still too long? Or movement? Or not being sure what happens next?

Is she better at certain times of day?

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craftyoldhen · 13/03/2017 19:00

Oh I see what you mean mummytime.
I agree with you that would be worth trying.

Unfortunately we're in a position at the moment where if she refuses to do something and argues/cries, she is effectively being rewarded for this negative behaviour by getting out of the thing she doesn't want to do. So she knows it works, and it's probably a bit of a vicious circle. It will probably take time, knowledgeable staff and consistency to help to change this -which just isn't available.

She will change teachers in 6 months and change schools in 18 months. And in secondary with a change of teacher in every lesson - who won't know very well or understand her, I fear this will never happen and things are only going to get worse Sad

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youarenotkiddingme · 13/03/2017 19:12

Plonks arse in thread full of ds siblings!

It's so hard. My ds is also rude and to the point to teachers but from his POV he's just making sure they stick to the rules and only making sure they do what he can manage.

It's a good tact to say they can do it their way but they have to understand others won't know what they mean.

Also blanking is fine. Ds can't name half the people in his class and he's year 8!

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Userone1 · 13/03/2017 20:24

Crafty I was just reading this and thought of you!

"Help, my child is always resistant, oppositional, and noncompliant!

This message is long and includes a lot of strategies. As your read through the problems and strategies, simply check off the ones that may apply to your child.

Many children on the spectrum have problems with following the lead of others, and are frequently viewed as oppositional. This is frequently seen as “intentional” noncompliance, and the child is often labeled as Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD). These children frequently have to control all activity and interaction, lead the activity their way, and refuse to follow the lead of others. If we press the issue they will often act out to re-establish control. This reaction can occur if they do not get something that they want, are pressured to do things they wish to avoid, and whenever someone is trying to lead what they are doing. There can be a variety of reasons why a child on the spectrum will be so resistant. Here are several reasons why and strategies to support them. This list is not all inclusive, but common issues.

  1. Because of the variety of processing problems (sensory sensitivities, delayed information processing, auditory processing difficulties, etc.) many children on the spectrum feel safe only when they are controlling and leading everything they are engaged in. “Uncertainty” scares them, so they need to control everything in order to maintain predictability to their world.


Suggestions:

a. Respect and accommodate for sensory sensitivities and use a sensory diet to calm and organize the nervous system.
b. Break tasks down into smaller parts; make them concrete with visual strategies; provide information in small bits that are clear and concrete.
c. Let the child pace the speed that information is provided, and how they express what they know.

  1. Because of the processing issues listed above, these children can become overwhelmed very easily. By resisting and controlling what they are engaged in they can pattern how much stimulation they have to process, avoiding overload which overwhelms them. They can pace the information to meet their nervous system needs.


Suggestions:

a. Use strategies listed above under number 1.
b. Respect, avoid, and/or accommodate for situations that tend to overwhelm the child.
c. Teach the children coping skills for dealing with overload.
d. Teach the children (and those around them) how to appropriately escape situations that overload them (break card, say “no”, ask for help, etc.).

  1. Difficulty understanding what is expected. Children on the spectrum have difficulty appraising what is needed, so they are either anxious about entering into new situations, or dive in to new situations without understanding what is needed (then acting out when they struggle). For these children they (1) do not know what to expect, and (2) do not know what is expected of them. They need the world to be very predictable so they know exactly what to expect.


Suggestions:

a. Preview, clarify and verify: Prepare the child before going into situations with (1) what they can expect to occur, (2) what is expected of them, (3) how long it will last, and (4) what will come up next. Also, anticipate any problem areas and how to handle them (e.g. withdraw and regroup when overwhelmed.). Don’t assume the child understands, clarify and verify that they understand.
b. For new situations, while knowing the child’s vulnerabilities, try to make modifications and accommodations to reduce the impact. Again, preview these ahead of time.
c. During activities/tasks, “think out loud!” Provide a narrative of what is needed, and how to do it. This can help guide and coach the child through the tasks.
d. Use visual schedules to help provide predictability and understanding.
e. Ease transition by preparing ahead of time, “Johnny, when this TV show is over you will take a bath.” Then provide 5, 3, and 1 minute reminders before transitioning between tasks, “Johnny in three minutes we will need to put the game boy away and have your snack.”

  1. From a history of constantly being place in situations where the demands are stronger than their skills to handle them, they have learned that it is simply safer to escape and avoid any activity that is not initiated and lead by them. So, they have to control all activity.


Suggestions:

a. By understanding the sensory, cognitive, and performance issues of your child, always look at how the demands can be lowered, presented differently, or provide more support to make them match the current skill level of the child.
b. Do the tasks/activities as “we-do” activities (do them together, helping each other out) to frame and scaffold the activity to maximize success. Match the demands to the child’s skill level, and do them together to support the child through it.

  1. Many on the spectrum have strong task performance anxiety. So when we ask them to perform, they will resist unless they know that they will be “perfect” at doing it. Because of their “black and white”, “all or nothing” thinking, unless they feel completely competent (which is often just in their preferred, self-directed activity), they will pull back and resist. It is an all or nothing response; resisting any activity that will take some time to learn.


Suggestions:

a. Understand the child’s comfort zones and stretch slowly.
b. Start where the child is at; keep it simple, build one step at a time, and maximize success.
c. Find the “just right” challenge and stay within it. Providing too big of challenge may overwhelm them.
d. When possible, do the activity together (we-do activity) so you can take the pressure off the child, thus lowering the task performance anxiety.

  1. Some children have a hard time “initiating” a task. They simply cannot get themselves started. This is due to weak executive functioning (brain wiring). They need you to “jump start” them.


Suggestions:

a. Assist them in starting the activity, then fade out the assistance as they get going.
b. Some of the kids with executive functioning issues cannot remember multi-step directions. You may need to provide visual prompts for each step. When you give the child a task, give them verbal instructions and then walk away, they may not be able to organize what is needed to carry it out. Don’t label this as noncompliance. Provide the necessary support.
c. Give written directions and a written outline (worksheet) to lead them from one step to the next. Be nearby to redirect and assist as needed.

  1. Lack of motivation. Many children on the spectrum have low motivation to do things that are not exciting for them.


Suggestions:

a. Increase motivation by following “nonpreferred “activity with “preferred” activity. Simply use the activity that they enjoy to reinforce completion of other activity. First do homework, than watch T.V.
b. Catch them being good! Provide three times more praise and positive attention for being cooperative than for being resistant (scolding, coaxing, etc.). Minimize attention for noncompliance.
c. Build in token systems, star charts, sticker programs, etc, only if needed to increase motivation.
d. Some children are resistant when tasks are boring. Try and build new learning around their strengths and interests to increase motivation.

  1. For children that say no and fight all “directions”! Often labeled ODD


Suggestions

a. Pick your battles. Reduce 80% of all “requests”, demands, and directions. Telling them, or asking them to do things, will elicit an automatic no! They will resist all imperative statements (questions, prompting, instructions, directions, requests, etc.). It just gives them ammunition to be noncompliant.
b. Use more declarative language to invite engagement. For example “Wow…I could really use help with this!” or “I bet you are better at this then me!”, rather than “Billy help me do _.” Invite without asking. It allows the child to feel himself volunteering to help; being in control under his own volition.
c. Provide no negative emotion to refusal. The two main things to avoid when child is resisting is “strong emotion,” getting upset, and any scolding, negotiating, coaxing, or bribing. They feed off the negative emotion (helps them feel powerful) and the attention that we give counseling, scolding, and coaxing. However you choose to respond to noncompliance, do it with little emotion, and with minimal talking.
d. For requests that the child “has to” do, use the following:
 Get the child’s attention, face to face, eye level.
 State the prompt in short, clear, concrete language.
 Provide the child 10 seconds to respond (longer for delayed processing)
 Repeat the prompt in firm manner; using same language.
 Still no response (as long as you have been using the strategies above to support all vulnerabilities) then continue to stand your ground, saying nothing but repeating the same statement every 30 seconds.
 For some children increase the assistance with physical guidance (unless it agitates them more), or simply wait until they are ready to respond.
 Once the child responds, provide support as needed and reinforce all cooperative participation.
e. Often these children respond negatively to positive praise (just the opposite of most children). They read “praise” as you controlling them to do things. So, for these children do not praise performance, just let mastery be motivating.

  1. Because of our wish to avoid a fight, many children on the spectrum have learned that by resisting, people back off and withdraw the demands in order to avoid a meltdown, or destructive behavior. By doing so we often get to the point where we pacify the child so he will not get aggressive. We coax and bribe the child to do things. Consequently, the child learns that by being noncompliant and acting out, he can manipulate the people around him to give him what he wants and to escape and avoid everything he wishes to avoid.


Suggestions:

a. Of course, build in above proactive strategies to match the demands to the child’s current skill level.
b. Use a visual schedule so the routine is consistent and predictable for the child, with preferred activity built into the schedule every 2-3 activities.
c. Do the activities as we-do activities as much as possible. Providing support and praise as you go along.
d. When child is resistant do not argue, negotiate, or justify your request at that time. Take away the battle and let the consequences teach the behavior. Tell the child “You are too tired to do it right now. That’s ok, you let me know when you are ready, and I will help you.” Show no emotion, simply back away and ignore noncompliance. However, the child cannot do any preferred activity until they follow through with the routine task.
e. If they complain, simply remind them that it is their choice and you are there to help them when they are ready.
f. It is important that you are very clear in the expectations and consistent in following through with “life stops” until the child becomes responsive again.

As you see, there are different reasons why children on the spectrum are oppositional. However, assume that the child is doing the best that he can, given the situation he is in and his abilities to deal with it. Also, assume that the more oppositional, the more incompetent the child feels. Focus on helping the child feel competent, and responsiveness will increase. We tend to focus too much on forcing compliance, when we need to be assisting the child by taking away the fight, lowering the demands (at least at first), providing increase supports, and focusing on what they are doing right. Help them feel more competent, and they will follow your lead"
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craftyoldhen · 13/03/2017 21:34

Wow Userone1 it's almost like some of that was written about DD!

She is definitely 8 and 9 and probably 4 too. Lots of useful tips there, thank you.

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craftyoldhen · 13/03/2017 21:47

Interestingly this is the one we do at home, and seems to work well:

a. Pick your battles. Reduce 80% of all “requests”, demands, and directions. Telling them, or asking them to do things, will elicit an automatic no!

Basically we have non-negotiables: bedtime, meal times, washing/brushing teeth, going to school and homework once a week.

The rest of the time is hers to do what she likes. I'm not strict about screen time (apart from no screens allowed in bedrooms for sleep reasons), I don't force her to do after school activities. I never tell her what to wear, or make her eat anything she doesn't like (nearly everything!).

CAMHS were particularly scathing when I told them this. They said I should create a timetable of activities for weekends/after school to give her predictability to reduce her anxiety! My anxiety went right through the roof at the thought of trying to impose a timetable on her, and the likely response!

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lougle · 13/03/2017 22:21

That's helpful. DD2 is coping with maths so much better because her teacher is taking her and a couple of others out of assembly and doing pre-teaching of that day's lesson concepts. Either stuff she should have covered the previous year ('hey DD2, remember this? You learned this last year, and we're doing it again today, so we're just going to go over it so you're really comfortable with it ready for the lesson later') or new concepts ('hey DD2, we're doing something new in maths today and it might blow your mind, so we're just going to go over it now, so you've got a chance to get comfortable with it so you're ready for the lesson later').

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lougle · 13/03/2017 22:22

I meant to say that the pre-teaching allows her to attempt to be a little bit more independent during the lesson itself.

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Userone1 · 14/03/2017 06:52

Crafty Maybe something like which spelling are you going to correct first? That kind of thing may work better than correct your spellings. One is a choice, the other a demand.

Plus teacher changing her language slightly doesn't cost anything or take up a great deal of time!

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lougle · 14/03/2017 07:32

DD2's teacher just underlines three spelling errors (of the many!!) in her work, then writes out the correct spelling in green ink underneath her work for her to practice, with no comment (although the system must be established because DD2 knows she's expected to write it out several times next to it). Could that work?

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Userone1 · 14/03/2017 07:41

In ds's school, children mark their own spellings (spelling tests) ie children spell, teacher writes the spellings on the board, children put a X or tick next to their spellings.

No writing or correcting as such.

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youarenotkiddingme · 14/03/2017 07:42

I did laugh once when ds teacher wrote 3 HF words for ds to practice that he'd written wrong.

She wrote "please practice these spellings"

Ds wrote "ok miss" Grin

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lougle · 14/03/2017 11:52

DD2 had coloured in something over the top of her writing and her teacher wrote 'don't colour in please!' DD2 wrote 'sorry Sad' Grin

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FrayedHem · 14/03/2017 18:21

DS1 would also not be impressed if I tried to impose a weekend timetable of activities. He'd go full Braveheart "you'll never take our my freedom!"

His school say they can't break down his work without getting outside help. Instead they want him to choose a LSA he will work with. Head:desk

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lougle · 14/03/2017 20:25

"His school say they can't break down his work without getting outside help."

Why? It's not rocket science. Trying what works. It's not a disaster if it doesn't. DD2's teacher told me that she gave the class a sheet of 10 to do and DD2 came to her in a panic saying 'how many do I have to do?' She said she realised at that point that DD2 just can't cope with having a whole sheet of anything to work on. It doesn't matter what it is, how simple, it's just too daunting. It needs to be broken down. So she said to her 'I need you to do 4, but I'd be really happy if you did 6.' When she came back to her, she'd done 8. Because the stress had gone. She knew she didn't have to do it all. She knew she could stop, but it was pretty easy. She knew when her teacher would be happy, but she still had time, so she kept going. Pressure gone.

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FrayedHem · 14/03/2017 21:50

Sorry for hijack craftyoldhen
It's a baffling response but it came from the Head so I'm stumped tbh. He broke down in a huge mess on Sunday so hasn't been into school and I'm trying but failing to get some sensible support in place. He's in constant trouble for being rude, but really he is just so stressed and anxious (particularly over maths) he can't deal with the LSAs attempts to help.

He has input from the Specialist Teacher but they don't implement the recommendations as DS1 says no to them - things like exit passes and communication cards. He doesn't like to stand out from his classmates, but he doesn't take into account when he gets upset and is being told off (which is most days) he is standing out already. Which I think is similar to craftyoldhen's DD.

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lougle · 14/03/2017 22:34

"but really he is just so stressed and anxious (particularly over maths) he can't deal with the LSAs attempts to help."

Then it sounds like he needs help that doesn't look or seem like help. The last thing he needs is to be given a task that is too hard/complicated/complex and then have a well-meaning adult saying 'let me help you deal with your problem....'. What he needs is to be given a task that he can succeed in independently. Then have that stretched slightly. So that he is building his ability.

DD2's teacher gave a perfect example of it when she said that the whole class were doing a very simple lesson on timetables, early on in the new academic year. It should have been a very good starter lesson for a topic. But it turned out to be a disaster, because the teacher discovered, very quickly, that two-thirds of the class couldn't tell the time. Even though they had been marked as secure in time-telling by a previous teacher. So instead of plugging away at it, they scrapped their planned lessons, and changed the plan to 'let's learn how to tell the time properly'. Because there's no point trying to 'help' the children read the timetables if they can't tell the time! It's just common sense and if people could use a bit of common sense with our children they probably wouldn't be so anxious!

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FrayedHem · 14/03/2017 23:28

"It's just common sense and if people could use a bit of common sense with our children they probably wouldn't be so anxious!"

Exactly that. Your DD2's teacher has a really good approach and sounds very committed to all the children in her class. Is she available for cloning?!?

When DS1's whole class failed to do their Big Write to a good enough standard, they got extra homework which was "why should Mr X waste his time bothering to teach us?" (200 words). DS1 wasn't in for the "failed" task and somewhat missed the point of the exercise and wrote about getting sacked and the children ending up teacherless, jobless and homeless! He didn't actually get in trouble with that as they for once realised he had a rather literal mind, and his response was thoughtful and logical.

DS1 has actually managed to specify what parts of maths are causing him problems. He says when complicated sums are put on the board, all the numbers blur into one as they are the same colour. That he can't understand wordy maths problems and that he doesn't understand fractions at all. I think a lot of that could be broken down/amended/shown a different method without needing outside support. DS1 said he would like for the numbers to be a different colour, not really doable but he is trying to express what would help him which is a massive step forward. But as soon as I mentioned the complicated sums scenario, the response included: they are standard sums, not college level we can't give each number a different colour and what he actually needs is an LSA he can work with.

It may be because he is Yr6 and it's just a case of them wanting to manage him until he goes on to Secondary and it's easier to swap around the LSAs than to spend time breaking down his work.

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Userone1 · 15/03/2017 06:49

Frayed blimey they won't even make really simple adjustments like writing down for him what's written on the board or change the colour of the pen. Is it a whiteboard? Ds cannot read from whiteboard, due to the glare.

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tartanterror · 15/03/2017 08:24

Thanks for all of your posts - it's helpful to know what others are doing!

My DS often refuses in English. It's a combination of problems with organising his thoughts, attending to someone else's topic; drawing themes together, understanding emotions, mindblindness; working memory and handwriting - like a perfect storm for autists really!!

MagicLink handwriting was expensive but has helped loads with the physical writing. But it's revealed his thinking difficulties. School are just about coping by giving him a set amount of time for the lesson and then letting him use leftover time for computer play. They use marbles to make it concrete. In the one hand I think this is a good plan but on the other I'm not keen that it is perpetuating his reliance on external motivators....

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tartanterror · 15/03/2017 08:25

....and encouraging him to do the bare minimum to get by....

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Userone1 · 15/03/2017 08:40

Ds has actually become really good at describing what he finds difficult. The other day as usual he was aching all over after a school day. (Ds attends an amazing specialist school btw and gets lots of support)

He told me he was tired because he has to sit correctly all day, remember what is being said, what to write, what to think, remember his manners and remember how to respond. His hand cramps from writing, his legs ache, his back aches where he is so tense all day from 'remembering'.

This is a kid who is 'high functioning' and gets a huge amount of specialist support and provision.

I thought that's just a normal day for him, without many of his specific difficulties getting in the way and how much effort it takes to just sit in a chair.

It must be so hard for many of our kids.

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FrayedHem · 15/03/2017 17:06

Userone1, yes the response was they couldn't do anything without outside support!?! I'm hoping they've misunderstood what is needed, as really some basic understanding adjustments would help. It is an interactive whiteboard. Thinking about it, they changed them at Christmas so maybe he is struggling with the new one...

I've made a tiny amount of headway in that they have agreed to go ahead and give DS1 a desk to himself and the exit pass so he is returning to school tomorrow. I'm going to write a letter detailing all what DS1 has said about maths (and the other stuff) and see what they do, if anything.

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Userone1 · 15/03/2017 19:53

My ds cannot read at all from the interactive whiteboard and only from the normal whiteboard if the teacher writes in certain colour pen (photophobia) the glare, causes the words to fade out.

How on earth do they expect your ds to complete any work if he literally cannot see what is written!!

Ds either uses his laptop, or teacher gives him a hard copy. How much effort does it take to use a black pen, rather than orange or green!

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