Can't believe we've got to wait to long.

[sweetteamum]

I spoke with SENco at ds school today. I wanted to see if it wod be a good idea for LEA EP to see ds and give school some direction and advice.

Ds saw private EP last December, who did various tests etc.

Anyway, SENco told me that ds wouldn't be seen by LEA EP as she's asked in the planning meetings and been told that it's too early for him to be seen since seeing private EP. Apparently you have to wait 2 years before being seen, even though it was different people.

Must admit, this really surprised me as I've never heard this before. I'm gutted we've now got to wait till ds has been in secondary school for a few months before he's due any EP time.

[sweetteamum]

That's what it comes down to I guess. Thanks claw.

[claw2]

Just work on the assumption they are right, its totally irrelevant really.

You want EP assessment, as school have said they want some advice/direction on what to do with your ds and you totally agree.

[sweetteamum]

Thanks claw. I guess it's knowing if these scores etc are right. The EP didn't exactly inspire confidence.

[claw2]

Centile ranking just means in comparison to others of the same age, for example if your ds scores on 80 centile means that 80% of children would score lower or 1 centile, 99% of children would score higher.

Standard score would be the average range.

[sweetteamum]

I'm sorry but I'm just so confused by it all. I have put the details below. Please feel free to tell me what you see/think.

BAS3 - core scale subtest

Recognition of designs - t-score is 40 - centile rank is 16

Word definitions - t-score is 58 - centile rank is 79

Pattern construction - t-score is 52 - centile rank is 58

Matrices - t-score is 48 - centile rank is 42

Verbal similarities - t-score is 40 - centile rank is 16

Quantitive reasoning - t-score is 41 - centile rank is 18


BAS3 - cluster

Verbal ability - standard score is 98 - centile rank is 45

Non verbal reasoning - standard score is 90 - centile rank is 25

Spatial ability - standard score is 93 - centile rank is 32

General cognitive ability - standard score is 92 - centile rank is 30

[claw2]

Ilikemysleep gives a better explanation than I did

From ds's previous reports, he is scoring on 99th centile for one thing, and scoring 0.4 centile for something else. This is regarded as a 'scattered profile' or 'uneven'.

When scores vary from above average to below average its written as strengths and weaknesses in reports. Im not sure how high above average has to be and how low below average has to be for it to be regarded as 'uneven'.

From the centiles you have given your ds's profile seems to be 'even' (all centiles seem to be below average) if that makes sense!

[ilikemysleep]

Sorry, miss the point of the scatter showing strengths and weaknesses.

[ilikemysleep]

clawsweetea hopefully he hasn't added the centiles, that is incorrect. There are tables you have to use where you add the t scores (different thing) to get an overall cluster score. With your ds's spread of scores the clusters may not be 'safe' though ( each subtest should be considered separately rather than giving a cluster if its spread, as claw describes).

A percentile compares children with others of the same age, as if they are ranked from 'least skilled' to 'most skilled' in the assessed area. So a kid with a vocabulary score at 2nd percentile has a vocab in the lowest 2% of the age group, or at 75th is better than 3/4 of the age group. (that's why 25th percentile isn't exceptional, in100 children 24 will score worse, or about 8 children in a class of 30 would be the same or worse). So you can see that a child with verbal skills at 79 th percentile and word definitions at 16th couldn't be at the 95th percentile overall verbally, but somewhere in between the higher and lower score, which would bring it around the average and miss the point if the scatter showing strengths and weaknesses.

[claw2]

Thanks Sweet and good luck to you too

[sweetteamum]

I've followed your story but not been up to date for a little while. Fingers crossed for him

[claw2]

Good days, bad days, but no where near as bad as it was, so improvement, thanks for asking.

[sweetteamum]

Thanks for that claw. I'm sure you'll not be surprised to hear I didn't get any of that information. Apparently ds has an even profile!?!

Just off topic a minute how is your son getting on at indi school?

[claw2]

The EP reports I have the 2 subtests are added together to give combined verbal ability centile.

For example Word definitions is verbal - 79
Verbal similarities is verbal 16

Verbal ability would be 95th centile

matrics is non verbal reasoning 42
Quantitative reasoning is non verbal reasoning 18

Non verbal reasoning would be 60th centile

Recognintion of designs is spatial - 16
Pattern construction is spatial - 58

Spatial 74th centile

The GCA is a combination of these scores to give IQ

I would have thought if word definition is 79th and similarities is 16th, although the combined score is 95th centile, an explanation would be given as to the weakness in similarities compared to word definition.

On occasion it has been recorded in ds's EP reports that a combined score could not be reached due to the amount of scatter in sub tests.

[sweetteamum]

The BAS3 cluster was

Verbal ability 45 centile
Non verbal reasoning 25 centile
Spatial ability 32 centile
GCA 30 centile

But, I don't really understand what they mean and he didn't explain. He also said that ds doesn't have dyslexia, however, he's since been found to actually have it by a specialists dyslexia teacher brought in by school!

[claw2]

Recognintion of designs is spatial - 16
Pattern construction is spatial - 58

Word definitions is verbal - 79
Verbal similarities is verbal 16


matrics is non verbal reasoning -42
Quantitative reasoning is non verbal reasoning 18

These are sub tests so I assume added together to give overall centiles?

Under each sub test there should be an explanation and a summary at the end.

[claw2]

Sweet I wouldn't worry too much about the recommendations, these are generally crap unless you have specifically instructed them for a specific purpose, like tribunal and they have ALL the evidence. Private EP who I instructed without any other assessments or dx, recommended things such as a social story etc, etc.

Focus on progress or lack of adequate progress.

[sweetteamum]

Hoxton, the lowest and highest centile wasn't and high as low as I'd first thought.

They were 16, 79, 58, 42, 16 & 18 centile (in the same order as BAS3 core scale subtests I've previously mentioned)

[hoxtonbabe]

Sweet: how low were the lows in terms of centiles? If he scored anything below the 9th ( I personally think anything below the 25th is very bad but apparently not in the SEN world) then that should be flagged up for an area of concern.

My DS has an uneven profile, however the few areas that were below the 10 centile were commented upon with recommendations, etc..on how to support these few areas as the bottom line is, it is still an area of significant weakness.

[sweetteamum]

Sorry, we paid over £650 and now know we didn't get value for money. Lesson learnt.

[sweetteamum]

Sorry if I'm confusing you. I can't describe things very well can I.

He assessed using BAS3 with core scale subtests of recognition of designs, word definitions, pattern construction, matrices, verbal similarities and quant active reasoning.

He also used BAS3 cluster, with subtests off verbal ability, non verbal reasoning, spatial ability and GCA.

He used BAS3 achievement scales, which was a reading test and spelling test.

Even though some of the highs were high and lows were low, he's indicated that ds has an even profile, which is not the case. It simply shows he really struggles in some things but does very well in others.

The rest of the report contains the meanings behind the tests, what he saw in school and things he'd plucked out from other reports. That's it. No advice.

[claw2]

I would have thought the same Hoxton. The EP I saw and ASD scales she used was just a questionnaire which we completed together, there wasn't a test. The BAS is purely an ability test. Although a poor score in verbal for example could back up concerns already highlighted in the questionnaire or a scattered score between subtests could be another indicator that further investigation is needed.

[hoxtonbabe]

but surely he would have carried out a WISC or BAS as that is usually the starting point for EPs??

if it was more for an ASD issue, then he should have been really recommending a more suitable person, as Claw said he could do tests as an indicator, but I would have thought that be in conjunction with one of the recognised EP tools, such as the BAS or WISC..hmmm, very odd

[claw2]

Sweet, that is bizarre, admittedly EP's will only do exactly as you instruct them to, but I instructed an EP prior to dx, ds hadn't any assessments at this point and my purpose was for EP to assess to see if and what difficulties were to give me some idea. I didn't ask for any specific tests, just general standard tests.

EP did Australian Aspergers scale, BAS scales. She assessed verbal, non verbal, spatial and GCA.

Subtests consisted of word definitions, verbal similarities, matrices, quantitative reasoning, recall of designs, pattern construction, spelling and reading etc. And the levels and centiles and age scores.

The Aspergers scale was completed with me, purely as an 'indicator' and she made it clear 'without expection' this will not lead to a diagnosis or prevent a diagnosis.

Her recommendations were pretty vague as it was just a general assessment and didn't include a observation in school, but she did make some.

Second EP I instructed was for the purpose of tribunal and was a totally different kind of report.

How much did you pay? and they did they provide a report?

[sweetteamum]

Sorry private Ep did not diagnose. Paediatrician has Dx ADHD.

Private Ep found areas of weakness but didn't give recommendations. When I asked why he didn't give them he said he thought I only wanted him to see if ds had traits of asd. Yes I did, but that's not all I wanted.

[hoxtonbabe]

Huh? That sound bizarre sweeteamum that he didn't give any recommendations? Was it part of thr deal/ contract that he would provide with a report? I know some professionals do not all offer a report, that's not to say they can't or won't but they try and keep costs down for parents they may give verbal feedback following an assessment,, then if you want in writing pay extra for that, but he should have notes regardless of this.

He may not have seen ASD traits ( that not to say there are not, EP could just be crap by the sounds of it, plus EP cant disgnose ASD) but sureley he picked up on other things or is he saying DS is totally fine/ dead on average ( not the low end of average) and above across the board from his findings??