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I got to thinking about reproduction yesterday...any thoughts?

32 replies

lougle · 03/04/2013 22:17

DF and I were chatting yesterday about DD1 being taken advantage of by 'friends' already, and I said that I dread her coming to an age where she can be taken advantage of by a boy/man. I said 'I can see me ending up bring up her baby...' He said 'you may need to get her sorted so she doesn't have that risk.'

It's a long time away, yet so soon. She's 7.4 now, just 8.6 years before age of consent. I know lots can change, but her deficits are more pronounced in the social sense. She is utterly naive, everyone's best friend, no stranger danger at all and that hasn't improved one bit with age. In fact, I'd say that part of her is 'broken'. She can learn the 'rules' and repeat them to you, but not apply them. In terms of parenting skills, I think, if she continues as she is, developing as she is, she wouldn't be able to parent.

What's moral/ethical? Should our children (those who will still be significantly impaired in those skills as adults - I know that many of the children on this board will be able to lead independent lives with the right input as children) be able to reproduce? Would it be ethical to insist on contraception?

I think I struggle because DD1 will be able to have an opinion, and may quite like the idea of having a baby, but she won't necessarily have any insight into what that means....

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BeeMom · 04/04/2013 02:31

Bee hit puberty at 5.5 - she is currently receiving hormonal therapy to delay it as long as possible. Her endocrinologist and I talked about this exact topic, and Bee would easily be so very taken advantage of.

For her, she has a hormone releasing implant - there are several options with regard to therapy and contraception, but honestly, that only covers the "babymaking" side of the equation. I am realistically more concerned about disease and abuse... Bee's personality makes her very much a potential victim. Sadly, I don't know where to draw the line between independence and protection.

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pollypandemonium · 04/04/2013 01:01

Thanks Mareeya that's very helpful.

I think I'm less concerned about pregnancy than I am about abuse. I am very worried about dd's vulnerability and being taken advantage of is more likely to be a problem for her.

Her school has been excellent so far, there is a lot of discussion and support about all sorts - nurture groups and special classes but ultimately it's down to us as parents to make sure we understand them fully and know what their limits are.

I have always told mine that she can have children and loves the idea of it (watches pregnancy programmes on TV when she can get away with it). I have been open with her from a very young age so that we can communicate and share ideas about it. We have had a lot of discussions like 'having a nice husband' and 'being kind to babies / pets' and being sensible and grown up.

I am more concerned about how she can recognise people that can take advantage of her but she does have a good natural barometer of peoples characters. I have always let her play out and let her make her own mistakes and she has always been at school with minimal intervention from adults so she has learned a lot through personal experience.

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Catchingmockingbirds · 04/04/2013 01:00

Aside from the unwanted pregnancy angle, going on the pill when she's a teenager might be better for her anyway as she would have more control over when her period was coming that month.

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CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs · 04/04/2013 00:42

I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm less shattered. Thanks for the links though.

You'd be surprised how quickly it gets to the point where they're 15 and you still haven't got any firmer answers on this than when they were 7/8 though!

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MareeyaDolores · 04/04/2013 00:30

Couthy, Brook might be worth a call. Or this lot?

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CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs · 04/04/2013 00:27

(Mirena also out due to ectopics AND a viable term pregnancy - my DS2 - in the family)

DD can't take pills, refuses to consent to jabs (needle phobic), would do anything to please (THAT scares the crap out of me - if you love me you won't make me wear a condom, DD will just say ok...), could just about get the implant put in but she'd never have it removed...

And despite the hormonal ness one week every month, still no damned period so that I can do SOMETHING.

I would take a first baby on, if I'd be allowed, given my own poor health, but after that I just couldn't.

DD will also be in that too able, not able enough conundrum. And is so close to it that it's scary. It keeps me awake some nights.

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MareeyaDolores · 04/04/2013 00:25

Consent is interesting. Permitting and refusing treatment have different rules. The law usually assumes that an under-16 requires a parent to consent or refuse treatment on their behalf. In contentious cases (JW and blood, separating conjoined twins, even withdrawing intensive care) with parents and medics disagreeing, the courts tend to get involved.

Doctors and nurses are required to put the child's 'best interests' first: the parent is unavailable, and no high court judge is handy Wink they weigh these interests up, then start any urgent or emergency treatment. So a conscious-but-unaccompanied dc is treated rather like a comatose adult.

In a non-emergency, a 'competent' under-16 can 'consent' for themself, by demonstrating they can retain, believe in and balance the pros and cons, eg the Mrs Gillick / Judge Fraser case. An over-16 is assumed to be capable of this lot until proved otherwise (and if they aren't competent, but can 'seem ok', a guardianship order is a useful bit of paperwork).

However a competent under-16, or even a competent 16-18y old cannot necessarily refuse treatment which parents and doctors consider essential, and in their best interests. Though again, it might involve a judge.

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CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs · 04/04/2013 00:18

I still don't know what the answer is, and DD is 15yo.

She hasn't yet had a period, and the GP won't prescribe her anything until she has had at least 6 months of regular periods.

By that time she could be pg.

I'm shitting bricks, frankly.

She would NOT cope with a baby. That's not up for debate - even the GP agrees with me. But he won't prescribe hormonal birth control (which includes the jab and implant) until she's had some regular periods. And she hasn't had one yet.

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MareeyaDolores · 03/04/2013 23:44

No proof that exposing teenage dc to toddlers might prevent under-18 pregnancy despite some promising other results (but those of us with toddlers and primary age must be doing early intervention Wink)

Barnardo's have done a useful literature review

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zzzzz · 03/04/2013 23:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

silverfrog · 03/04/2013 23:33

I'm pretty much assuming dd1 wil be at home with us too, lougle.

I fully expect her ot fall between all gaps in adult services - too damned able, yet not able enough.

potentially, this could all be happening while I was trying to support dd2 through A levels and ds through secondary school, let alone trying ot help them out with their future children.

god, why can't they stay children forever

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zumbaleena · 03/04/2013 23:32

Jeez! Mine is only 3 and I am wondering!

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lougle · 03/04/2013 23:30

You're right though, Star, because if DD1 goes to Special Secondary School, they are mixed. That's a whole bag of hormones all together for 30 hours per week.

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lougle · 03/04/2013 23:29

Quite, Star! That's assuming they are well and able. What if (as we suspect) DD1's issue is genetic and is passed on?

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StarlightMcKenzie · 03/04/2013 23:28

I think it is sensible to be thinking about it now.

I think it is sensible for mothers of boys with disabilities to also think of it now tbh, though the impact might not be so great on them personally, they are still potentially a part of the problem.

(though I know it isn't necessarily boys with disabilities that the girls need protecting from)

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lougle · 03/04/2013 23:28

I know, and that's assuming that your DD is independent so you can safely do all that. What if I'm still caring for DD1 at home, because she's fallen through the criteria gaps of adult services, without respite, and then have teeny tinies to raise, as well as trying to support DD2 and DD3 with any children they have as a Grand Parent?

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StarlightMcKenzie · 03/04/2013 23:27

Yes. How many babies? And how many will have disabilities?

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silverfrog · 03/04/2013 23:24

raising the baby is not the end of the story, either.

what if dd1 grows up, gets preganat, sails thorugh it all, breeze of a labour (apparently it happens Hmm). and I step in to 'help' (read raise the baby).

what's to stop it happening again? and again? how many babies later do i stop 'helping'? or find another way of managing it all?

god it's jsut a flipping nightmare.

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lougle · 03/04/2013 23:24

Those links are scary.

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lougle · 03/04/2013 23:24

Mareeya, they do, but you have to consent. My concern is that DD1 could fall in that no-man's land of cognitively able enough to refuse consent but not able to appreciate the consequences of a lack of contraception.

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silverfrog · 03/04/2013 23:22

thnaks for the links, Mareeya, will have a read.

it's not just help as these times approach, though, lougle, is it? it's help for the rest of our lives.

dd1's school will be ace. they just will. they are at everything. and thankfully, they have a secondary dept already, with a healthy contingent of girls, so are experienced in the whole thing.

but that only lasts 'til dd1 is what, 16? 18 if we're lucky? what about after that? when she is in adult services, with lower supervision rates, and lower hands-on rates (iyswim).

mirena is out for d1 as ectopic pregnancies run in the family (I am the 4th generation to have had one).

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MareeyaDolores · 03/04/2013 23:18

Depot and mirena stop your periods too.....

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MareeyaDolores · 03/04/2013 23:17

Outcomes article, a research summary and a proper review. Although ASD / impaired executive function isn't synonymous with LD, there are commonalities.

This is a subject I did a dissertation on nearly 20y ago but nothing much seems to have changed: consensus is that families are usually ok with good support, but most support isn't good, so many children are taken into care Sad

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lougle · 03/04/2013 23:16

Oh absolutely, Starlight. I would raise the baby, if necessary, but it's easy to think that when DD1 is 7. When she's an adult, it would be hard to tread the line between helping and being 'Mum' to the baby.

I wonder if there is help for parents as these times approach?

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StarlightMcKenzie · 03/04/2013 23:12

Coping the baby is one thing, but expecting my child to cope with having a baby he/she couldn't keep would absolutely break my heart.

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