Sudden horrible realisation of DS's lack of empathy :(

[Ben10isthespawnofthedevil]

The paed at our first appt asked me what DS would do if he saw me crying, would be come and comfort me. I said that I didn't know as I didn't cry in front of him.

This morning I fell down the stairs with a scream that woke DH up. DS didn't even move from his beanbag where he was watching TV. When DH asked him if he had heard me, he said yes. DH asked him if he realised that I could have hurt myself as I had screamed he said no. Once it was pointed out that I might have hurt myself, then then came and asked me if I was OK.

This really upset me as was really not the reaction I would expect from a 6 year old. His difficulties really came crashing down on me suddenly - think that I minimise them so much by making sure that we avoid sensory stuff etc, it reduces the reality of it all.

[Claw3]

Thanks everyone, she was 17 years old, so had a good innings and it was no real shock, but im a sentimental softie!

Ds actually lightened the mood and i had to laugh too. Ds was really very fond of the cat, so quite a nice image, for ds to visualise, as oppose to a doom and gloom one. What else would cats do, in cat heaven, but float about meowing :)

He wants to be a vet when he 'grows up' so perhaps a little work is needed!

[amberlight]

Claw3, oh heck re cat - never easy. They're so much a loved part of families...

[mariamagdalena]

Am sorry about the loss of your pet, Claw.

I keep visualising your ds's floating cats crashing into heavenly angels. My ds just didn't get death until I taught the concept with concrete examples. So it's sort of funny, but also yet another therapy task...

[Ben10isthespawnofthedevil]

Thanks Amberlight I was hoping that you would post. I know that DS would never want me to think that he didn't care about me as he is very very loving. I am waiting for Temple Grandin's book to come in at the library as the film was so inspiring. I just need to keep plugging away to help DS communicate in way that help him behave in what is considered acceptable in society to try to help him feel that he fits in more.

Claw "Thinking in pictures" definitely explains your DS then. :( About the cat. THanks for the best wishes......

[Claw3]

I hope you are ok Ben10!

I recently had to have our cat put to sleep and ds saw me crying and completely ignored me. Even when i told him, he asked 'has she gone to cat heaven' when i replied yes, he burst out laughing. Apparently, he could visualise all these cats floating about in heaven, meowing. No empathy, but a good imagination i guess!

[amberlight]

If I can put in a thought or two, as many know I'm on the autism spectrum and not at the mild end of it. But I learned to empathise, and I know any number of equally autistic people who can do the same. It isn't at all impossible - it just takes us more time to learn what people need to hear and see, and to experience enough of life to be able to know what it feels like to have X happen to a person.
Don't give up. Don't think we don't care, either - we do. But we're often cr8p at showing it in the way you expect, because our whole body language/communication thing is different.
If you look at work by some of the best known people on the spectrum, there is huge empathy. Temple Grandin works tirelessly for animal welfare. Donna Williams's artwork and spiritual work is extraordinary. So many artists, poets, clergy, authors - all have managed to decode how to express caring. It can be done. But yes, it's weird when we react differently to what's expected...that's for sure.

[signandsmile]

we have got some stuff from 'sense toys' which I am hoping is gonna be useful...

smashing little bag of 20 little soft squares with facial expressions on, (10 pairs) so we can play lots of recognising emotions, matching pairs, putting the right face (emotion) on a picture of an event. someone fallen over gets a sad face, someone opening a present gets a happy one, etc. v simple. but a good start...

(ds is not verbal enough for explanation of spoken idioms/metaphors yet)

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

The autism advisory teachers recommended it, Ben10. I don't know if that was the best place to get it from, didn't try Amazon etc.

[Ben10isthespawnofthedevil]

That looks better Ellen. Will bookmark that to buy it

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

Pull your socks up Crossed with you, Ben10. This is a different one!

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

As an aside, my DS used to play a board game with his TA at school called, 'Pull your socks up,' which may be the one mentioned above. It was great for teaching the meaning of common idioms. DS doesn't use them much but he does understand now that when it's bucketing down, there won't be any buckets!

[Ben10isthespawnofthedevil]

Idiom game here

[Ben10isthespawnofthedevil]

I love this board. You can write about the smallest things and people out there somewhere just understand :)

I do keep trying with the appropriate responses ie say hello when you go into the local corner shop when the man says hello, say goodbye or thank you when you leave. Have been doing this since we moved here 4.5 years ago. Still not managed to get it so that he does it ever without being prompted but will keep trying in the hope that "fake it till you make it" will kick in at some point,

Lenin

Salus that is the sort of thing that we get too

FickleFreckle Thanks for your post. will see if I can find an idioms board game. He loves a board game - I have hidden Snakes and Ladders

[Starchart]

Fickle, I have an almost 3 year old and I have watched her development very carefully. The more complex emotions she does indeed fake and practise and try out and model and watch and imitate. I don't think she even has some of them yet (i.e. embarassment, guilt etc) but boy does she put on a good show.

I think acting to manipulate the social situation to your advantage or getting a reaction out of others is how it starts tbh. Our DCs didn't go through that stage so probably need to be coached through it.

[Goblinchild]

'Starchart and Goblinchild have you found there is an element of "fake it till you make it" with coaching appropriate emotional responses? - I am finding slowly with ds that if I make him do the behaviour enough the feeling begins to follow instead of the other way round as with NT children - or am I being fanciful? '

I think you are onto something there.
My DS is bright, and I taught him the correct things to say as responses to family in certain situations. They showed pleasure and approval, which he liked and was able to relate to what he'd said or done. So he repeated it when the situation arose again. He likes the feelings he gets when they are happy.
For example, he has good manners, which people comment on positively because he's a scary, hoody teenager. Which he likes, so he looks for situations where he can be helpful. So the perception is that he's empathic and identifies problems he can help with, rather than his behavioural training meaning that he's actually looking for his virtual biscuit.

[FickleFreckle]

Ben10 glad to hear you are OK in body from the fall if emotionally bruised Poor you to be ill and waiting for an operation with the summer holidays coming up and having this stress - they do pick their moments don't they?

We have the same thing re: empathy and it has helped to hear from adults on the spectrum that they do sometimes feel sorry for people or distressed that they are hurt but cannot come up with the appropriate reaction. I've heard also that autistic children can show inappropriate reactions like laughing and so on when still feeling distress.

Not wanting to get you into a mind-bending game of "guess the ASD emotion" but it may hurt a little less to know that your son may be feeling more affected than you know. DS will often go into one of his obsessions and I wonder if this makes him feel better so he assumes it will help me too!

Of course he may just not have had a clue that someone falling over and screaming their head off is in pain and needs help and comfort. DS could not tell the difference between people pretending to scream and so on to be funny and really being hurt. (I was quite sensitive to people's emotions as a child and still remember the shame when my father was stung by a hornet and I laughed and laughed thinking he was clowning around). DS might just have been thinking mummy was behaving oddly and decided to tune it out - that is what my son does when people does things he doesn't understand or that stress him out.

Starchart and Goblinchild have you found there is an element of "fake it till you make it" with coaching appropriate emotional responses? - I am finding slowly with ds that if I make him do the behaviour enough the feeling begins to follow instead of the other way round as with NT children - or am I being fanciful?

Goblinchild I also find I have to fight the tendency to make excuses or water down the implications of actions eg. having to explain to ds that children he has hurt may not want to play with him any more even after he has said sorry. But real life can be unforgiving sometimes.

Colditz your ds2 actually sounds unusually empathetic and I would have been very proud of that reaction from a 2 year-old. My 3-year old dd wouldn't do that and she is not on the spectrum - she is a nice child with a lovely personality, but empathy is just not her strong suit at present and she too does not show much reaction when I am upset as it makes her too uncomfortable. She will try to distract me by suggesting an activity she enjoys!

Ben10 with regards to idioms, someone gave us a sheet of card with a board game with idioms on it. When you land on an idiom you have to say what it means. I don't think ds does really understand them but he did get the message that things that sound ridiculous are probably an expression.

It is so upsetting when it bursts upon you that your child really does have a disabling condition - I go through stages of thinking I am fine and then something will bring it home and it's like I'm grieving all over again. Then ds will seem really "normal" and I wonder if I am imagining the whole thing.

I do hope you feel better soon and that your paed is helpful so you can move on and focus on taking some care of yourself! Have a .

[salus1]

My moment of realisation was when we were watching The Cube on tv.

A mother had one last life left, she had said how she wanted to take her family to Disneyworld. The camera panned to her litlle boy in the audience. I said "aww I hope she wins" to which ds 7 replied "I don't I like the lights when they lose" I expained how sad the little boy would be. and then asked him if he hoped she would win now, he said "No I want her to lose I told you I like the lights"

[Mitmoo]

Ben 10 - It's clearly an aspect of autism that many can relate to and sympathise with. Its when you talk to other parents that I realise I'm not alone with this and that just makes it easier. I hope it does for you too.

[Ben10isthespawnofthedevil]

You lot have been busy posting while I've been gone. :)

Sign I'm OK after my fall thanks.

DS laughs at people hurting themselves if he pays any attention at all. We are trying the sad face, happy face, angry face thing which he gets. He doesn't get bored, irritated, uninterested etc....... Anything except for the extremes is beyond him.

He is so literal it is untrue - "raining cats and dogs" is my favourite one I can't say it is 4 o'clock unless the the big hand is absolutely on the 12. Not five minutes either way.

No teasing or sarcasm can happen in the house as he gets very upset. DH is a natural teaser and I always use lots of sarcasm - all without malice but we are having to train our way of this.

Not sure how you teach a child to become less literal - any ideas?

Lenin DS has also made comments that I would class as derogatory about black skin. Luckily he has done it at home so I have been able to deal with it. Hasn#t stopped him though. Hope you do get some support soon as sounds very hard for you.

[Starchart]

Poor lad. DS has these problems too but is younger so it isn't yet much of an issue for him. He has got into trouble at school a few times though and not understood what he was being punished for.

The one that broke my heart was during the 'sad' training just mentioned we were teaching him to pay attention and comment on people's faces and he mentioned that a black girl in his class had a chocolate face. He was punished and a 'racial incident' was logged in his name. FFS