Don't think DD will ever learn to read

[IndigoBell]

I am in a really bad place right now.

I don't think DD is ever going to be able to learn to read or survive academically. Up to now I always thought she just needed a better teacher / better learn to read method - but this holiday it has really hit me.

She is a bright, articulate, charming girl with a perfectly normal IQ and no special needs of any kind - besides the fact that her working memory is so poor and she has such slow cognitive processing that she appears not to be able to learn.

She is in year 3 but is still working at reception level. Able to slowly and labouriusly blend 3 letter words. But not able to read 3 letter words fluently.

I don't want to give up on her - but I have totally run out of ideas. I don't think she has the cognitive ability to ever be able to read - despite bring of perfectly normal intelligence.

I'm totally out of ideas and am so worried for her. I think she's going to have a totally shit life and there's nothing I can do to prevent it / alleviate it.

Well certainly remembering the shape of words won't be the way she learns to read - as her problem is with her memory.

Technology helps when you're at home in front of your own computer - if you can survive school with your confidence intact (which is unlikely if you can't read, write or remember). But it doesn't help with day to day problems of which bus goes where, which tube station am I at, filling in a slip at the bank, working out what to buy at the supermarket etc, etc.

I think some people compensate very well for not being able to read - but I bet they all mind and all wished they could read.

I guess it's a more general problem with her memory which is just exceedingly hard to compensate for.

For example

• she can't spell her own name ( only the diminutive which is more often used)
• she doesn't know the names of all the other kids in her class
• she doesn't know what day of the week it is and certainly doesn't know the months of the year.
• she forgets what she is meant to be doing

I had a look at the trial lesson for head sprout and thought there is no way she'll do it.

She will not find it fun and engaging. She doesn't like any computer games and she will know it is yet another learn to read program.

It also starts with the alphabet which is the main thing that put me off - she will be really upset at being forced to do a game to learn her letters when she already knows them.

Also I think the lessons were very long.

Indigo, a lot of us here use big unfussy calendars and every bedtime our children cross off the day.

If you have either a week to view or a month to view, they form a predictable pattern.

Once you have go used to the crossing off thing, you can put a pic or an 'S' all days that she goes to school, so she can get an idea for 5 days at school, 2 days off, and then she can learn - slowly possibly - the name of the first day off, and the first day of school etc etc.

It also helps a night with recalling some aspect of the day, so you can draw a picture to represent it. You can also count down to a major event, like birthday or holiday, by putting the picture in a few days in advance.

Could that help?

silverfrog if a child in my school was experiencing the difficulties Indio's daughter is after 4 years of school and obvious family support I would be calling in the EP to investigate underlying difficulties. I am aware from previous posts there were problems in a previous school but I'm also aware of all the work Indigo has done at home. Indigo's daughter is beginning to blend cvc words and recognise some words by sight after 1 year?? using RWI which is about what a child in reception can do after a year on the same programme... to what extent this is due to the problems with the previous school is hard to measure.
It really isn't possible to diagnose from a distance and I/we could be missing something simple/significant.

To improve working memory I would play games such as pelmanism pairs games ... Kim's game ... "I went to the shop and I bought ..."
Giving 2 instructions...then 3 ...then 4 and gradually increasing the number of things she needs to remember. I would do lots of spot the difference puzzles...

If Indio's daughter remembered whole words I would work on this but as she doesn't I would focus on blending but I wouldn't stick to cvc words I would include ccvc and cvcc words. Lots of daily short sessions rather than 1 longer session. Use multi sensory methods so there are lots of memory prompts.

What I wouldn't do is rely on word shape alone to help a child read.

Absolutely indigo.. I totally get a bit hacked off when I find Reading so difficult and wish I could just do it.
( without the arse about head way I do it).

the memory bit is hard but totally key.. If you can crack that then your on to a winner.. Your dd has learnt to wk and talk and perform tasks.. So all isn't lost.

My main point being really is not to panic.. It took me until I was in my twenties to read. . And I hope that it just gives a glimmer of hope really.

There are gadgets for out and about Reading.. Etc and people are pretty cool too and will often help out.. Not ideal but not undoable either.

I don't think it's an all or nothing thing Indigo. Right now she can't do those things, but she will (probably) get better she will know the days of the week, be able to read a bus timetable in time. With all that you're doing for her she'll be able to function. If she has that base level of skill and oodles of confidence in the things she is good at she'll have a good chance.

Relying on visual aspect of reading will never create a fluent reader as reading is about decoding infinite combinations of letters and their corresponding sounds.

Then it is about understanding what is being read.

So, in a broad sense, learning to read and then reading to learn.

I'm sorry you don't think Headsprout will suit your purpose Indigo but it is worth remembering the following:

There are 80 episodes and a child who is able to cope with building blocks (ie knows some/all letters ) will progress very fast which in itself develops confidence. ('Wow, something I can do!') which boosts them when it comes to tackling later episodes.

The child has a map with stepping stones for each episode, upon which the child places a sticker. So, progress is up on the wall for all to see. Checking (and showing off ) the progress maps to all and sundry is a big part of this, and in my work it's the 1st thing the kids show me when I get to school.

The episodes can be cut down. I've worked with one world expert in the field of autism who sliced them down to 1 minute segments.

You can also use additional reinforcers for finishing an episode but i have found that kids get so absorbed and interested and pleased with themselves for finishing an episode, that they don't really need anything else to spur them on.

It makes me very sad to hear of your anxieties and your child's issues as they could easily be resolved with very little time and money. Precision Teaching would address all the areas you cite and sort them out in a matter of days.

I know this as a professional and a parent.

Start, Headsprout is a reading programme designed not specifically for kids with SN but I am researching its application in this area.

Yes, with it you can guarantee that things are being taught properly and in the appropriate order. The key issue with schooling is that very few teachers have been trained in teaching reading proprerly.

Therei s additional material for kids who are really challenged but that is only available to schools as it is beyond the scope of competency of most parents to learn how to use it.

That's not an issue in the case of the kids who effectively teach themselves to read but it spells diaster for those who are having problems. What thne tends to happen is that you get a mishmash of well meaning but ill equipped people applying an ill thought out variet of techniques.

Disaster, and a disaster it is very hard for children to extricate themselves from.
I come across kids all the time who are in an absolute mess, through no fault of thier own. It then takes a huge amount of work to 'unteach' them all the faulty crappy stuff they have half learned and are clinging to like rats to a sinking ship, bless their hearts.

Moondog

"very few teachers have been trained in teaching reading properly."

Please tell me that's hyperbole. Surely that's day one at teacher training college?

Moondog - we have talked lots about precision teaching, and I've really explored it, but I don't see how it will help DDs Slow Processing and Working Memory Problems.

Her absolute biggest problem is her 'slow processing' also called 'sluggish cognitive tempo'. This is what is stopping her from reading fluently.

DD is not motivated by a star on a chart. She is 8 years old!

She is always doing work which is too easy for her 'so that she gains confidence' - all it does is make her feel extra stupid because she is doing such extra easy work.

Not to mention there is no way I can work with her 5 times a day. I could (and do) work with her before school. Maybe my husband could get one lot of work in with her after school. But that would be it - because most of the time (like right now) she is too tired to do any mental work.

She's not stupid, she can see that everyone else is reading fluently. When she reads a red band book, she doesn't feel great about it - she knows it is nothing to feel great about. She knows she is doing reception level work.

I am using all these PT discussions we have been having to teach her her number facts. And they're going well enough. But number facts are a far simpler thing to learn then how to read.

Now, I don't doubt that you could teach her using PT - but I can't.

If I was HE I could maybe teach her using PT - but if I withdrew her from school now she would think it was because she was too stupid for school, so I'm not going to do that (yet).

Indigo I don't know much about teaching but I think our daughters have some similarities, but mine is 10. Bright as a button but short term memory problems, can't decode etc etc.

Try not to focus all your energies on the thing she's not good at. I've encouraged mine to do a philosophy club, chess club, running and art. The things she's good at.

Like your child, mine's not daft and real self esteem, IMHO, will come from her doing well at these things, the things she's good at and enjoys. And her self esteem will be helped by her seeing that you value these things about her.

Thanks KATT. Good to hear from someone who's further down the road then me.

Luckily she is very good at one particular sport, which we encourage like mad. It does really help her confidence. And school are very good about getting her to talk about it in assembly etc.

KATT, uunfortunatley not.Madness isn't it?
Indigo, it's not about a star on a chart, it's about tangible evidence of progress.
Spurriing someone on is about sophisticated use of reinforcers. (So for me, more exercice means a better body and nicer clothes-spurs me on when I'm sweating and groaning on a hill.)

In the same way, tonnes of research has been doine on the phenomenen of 'momentum' in which easy and hard tasks are presented in a very careful combination to maximise llearning.

I'll not be writing more as I don't want to upset and distress you but, like most people, you have been led to beleive her difficulties are due to some nebulous problem within her when they probably aren't.

'Her absolute biggest problem is her 'slow processing' also called 'sluggish cognitive tempo'. This is what is stopping her from reading fluently.'

They are most probably due to her not being taught in the msot appropriate way and with insufficient attention being paid to fluency.

This website looks a bit amateurish (probably because most of these peopel are busy doing real work, and thius paying scant attention to PR) but it has some gems on it.

Fluency

I live work and die (because it really is so important to me) the maxim of one of my heroes. Michael Maloney

'If the pupil hasn't learnt, the teacher hasn't taught'.

Indigo - from the few months I have spent on this site, I have learnt a lot and so has my ds (9 yrs old and in ms).

Following ds's assessment (Ds has expressive language of around 4 years old when assessed 6 months ago) I decided to become even more proactive. From Moondog, Working and other experts, I have learnt how to break down tasks. For last term's curriculum, school was doing WW II so I asked CT what the key words ds needed to assess the curriculum. She came back with words like evacuation, battle, shelter, poisonous gas etc. I sent the list to ds's SALT and ask her to help me break it down - we got fight, safe, etc. School was surprised when ds talked about why he should use a gas-mask. They were also extremely surprised and pleased with themselves at the increase of his ability to express himself.

From the same people, I learnt PT. For the annual review, school said he can probably read 25 words. Started PT record mid November - ds this morning read 90 words.

re Maths - from school's record, they wre working on 1 more and 1 less since late 08. Found out in November that ds did not understand 'more' or 'less'. Worked with him on those concepts using sweets. Last week he could give answers to questions such as 'which is more - 47 or 32'? Btw, school is still working on 'more than or less than' eg. is 5 more than or less than 7? and I know that question in itself is too complex for ds.

Like you, I despaired. However, someone on this board said, 'If the child has not learnt in 3 sessions than you have to change something in the lession' and that was my clue. Up to 20/11 this year, ds could only add 0 to numbers up to 30. On 21/11 he was adding 1 to numbers up to 10. By the end of the month he could add 1 to numbers up to 100. However, we hit a wall and he just could not add 2 to anything more than 2. With advice from this board, we are using Numicon. Today, using an abacus, he was adding lots of single digit numbers - first time he has done it.

What I am trying to say is don't give up. I am only giving the above examples to show how lucky I was to finally find methods that my ds understands or maybe it is just all manifesting itself. . My ds was taught songs featuring the days of the week etc. but it was only last year that he suddenly made significant progress.

Good luck. Hope the above does not sound smug because it is not intended to - just to show how this board has helped.

That's wonderful news Trying.

Really pleased for you both.
Are school interested in what you are doing at home?

Indigobell - my DD3 is nine and I posted on mumsnet about 18 months ago with a similar worry. She was articulate and bright - if she could have taken tests etc verbally she would have passed with flying colours but she could barely read or write and was way behind. The school tested her for everything but she wasnt dyslexic or anything. She just wasnt interested, couldnt concentrate on it, didnt get it and got very upset if she was made to read or write. She spent years crying in class - got labelled a crybaby by other kids.

She loves to sing so I took her to join a choir where she needed to read her words and suddenly she had a reason to read (and at speed!). Last term (year 5) she was taken off the "watching" register (cant remember the proper name but she wasnt on the SEN) and is now racing through the books and levels, reads lots of stuff I never thought she would, like the Harry Potter books. Her brain just wasnt ready.

Don't know if it would work at all, but could you get in touch with a Uni that is studying short term memory problems and see if they have any ideas/know of any research that could help?
Cardiff Uni psychology dept. (linked with their neuroscience dept) do lots of research into memory problems, and even if they aren't researching the specific area I am sure someone there would be able to point you on to somebody else who can.
Prof J. Aggleton email here definitely researches memory, but route around on the site and there may be someone there who is looking at working memory more specifically than he is.

Moondog school is blaming me for doing too much with him and hence his reluctance to go to school. For the last 6 week term, he refused to go in on Fridays and only went in on the very last Friday because he was ill on Weds and Thurs of the week. However, we do so much at home I really don't think he is missing much except for the social side as at long last they are actually teaching him to play with some other children. For example, for the topic Transport, they had him colouring cars/trains/trucks and naming wheels and tyres. At home we talked about how he went on the school trip this year - coach - and last year - coach and boat etc. What transport each of us use to get to different places eg. trains, bikes etc. They are really not interested. I am trying to get him moved.

Also, have just tried HS with him and he can only do it for 2 mins but have emailed them for more information.

Sorry for hijack Indigo. I should also say that I have been told ds's IQ is low, that he will struggle academically etc. He has very little attention-span, does not read any books, cannot self-occupy for long, does not watch tv etc. However, like Star said, if as parents we do not have high expectations, then who will.

They are very helpful Trying and if you want any help along the way, I'll do my best too if you start a thread.

The HS thing is difficult. I understand why many parents want to do it but being home unfortunatley means you miss out on a lot of invaluable 'rubbing along with everyone else' stuff.
It's hard-no perfect solution to any of it.

Thanks everyone.

I really, really don't get how I can use PT to help her.

My current goal is for her to be able to read 30 CVC words per minute. She has been able to read CVC words for a year and a half now, and knows exactly how to do it. She just hasn't got any better in a year and a half (obviosly she has had lots of practice over that time.)

Sat her down this morning and she could read 12 CVC words per minute ( a decrease since last time I tested her when she could read 15)

I'll try again thoughout the day and post back her results.

Her target for next time is 13 and when she succeeds celebrate!

Indigo I hear you. I hear everything your saying.

BUT as awful as this is, your child's ONLY hope for sorting this is you.

You're frustrated because what you have tried hasn't worked. You are frustrated because you don't know why. You are being told that it is something about your dd by the 'professionals' (or info on her condition) that is causing the issue. You are being told here that it is something about 'you' that is causing the issue (i.e. your inability to perfect the teaching method that works).

You don't believe in yourself and your ability to make a difference. If you're anything like me you'll be bloody angry that you should have to and quite depressed at the amount of work it might take and the sacrifices you have to make and the forced on your other children(?).

I'm not very good at saying what I am about to say, although I know I can be blunt sometimes but I think you need a bit of a kick up the bottom.

Take those CVCs and work on them every day, maybe twice a day if you can get your dd to do it. Do it at the same time each day as part of a routine. Put the ones she gets in a pile and the ones she doesn't in another pile. When she gets an additional one to the session before, celebrate like mad. If she gets one less just ignore it. You can keep a lovely block graph so she can see herself her progress.

Analyise within an inch of your life, the ones that she is having difficulty with. Do they all have b's and d's in them, or a particular vowel. If so, you can start a different CVC programme concentrating on the area of difficulty.

In terms of working memory issues there have been some things suggested here. My ds loves the physical games with instructions so 'ds clap your hands and spin around - yay brilliant now lets play with the fan'

If he doesn't do it, then you repeat the instruction whilst physically getting him to do it.

Once he gets 100% for that a few times it is 'ds, jump, touch your nose and hop'

It has taken a year since we first started this but now ds can follow instructions such as: 'ds, go into the front room, get the red ball from the sofa, go upstairs and put it on dd's bed' (we would have a variety of balls in the front room etc.)

I'm very VERY lucky however. DS progresses at a rate that whilst slow is still fast enough for it to be rewarding for me to teach at my own internal patience levels. I am rewarded for MY efforts in teaching him. I can image it would be harder to keep up the practice if the time period had been 10 years and not 1.

Could it be that you aren't giving any strategies long enough or being precise enough to be able to see the progress? Or perhaps breaking things down small enough.

With the CVCs could you start with all the ones ending with 'at' and just canging the first, being a bit more systematic?

ALthough I have to admit that I have yet know knowledge about how to teach reading, just an understanding of how you break things down, and then some more, and then some more. Generally the smaller you break things down, the more likely you are to see the progress.

Anyway. Hopefully just some ideas for you to think about. You will figure it out because you are a good parent and quite frankly who will if you don't?

Thank everyone - you are all right.

I am just so overwhelmed. She is so far behind in every subject, there is just so much to do.

I spent all last year doing various 10 minutes a day learn to read programs, none of which helped at all. Plus spent all last year fighting with her old school, which didn't help at all.

And I can't work with her twice a day. I work full time. By the time I come home in the evening she is far too tired to do any work. All I do is put her to bed. And in the morning she is now doing vision therapy / retained reflexes therapy - which I would definately prioritise above learning to read.

So that leaves after school. DH picks the kids up from school. DS1 has Aspergers, and DS2 probably does too - so after school is absolutely manic.

However somehow me, DH and school are going to sort this out.

And we will. Obviously I would never really give up on her. The problem is huge and overhelming. And will take more time than we have. But we'll have to solve it anyway.

Thanks for all of your support. I really needed it.

Indigo, is it possible for you to get a utor for her?

I mean a mother's help type tutor, rather than an academic one (sorry, hangover form ABA programme )

a psychology student for eg, who migth be interested in helping out?

an hour a day after school (to take the pressure off your dh who has his hands full at that time).

I oculd never work with dd1 either. It jsut didn't happen. we always used tutors.

we did a LOT of work as Star described - clap hands, touch feet, choose a colour, run to the tv, run back to the door, touch your left shoulder, etc. building it all up slowly to be rapid fire. a version of simon says i guess.

it really did help her processing/response times.

Now that's a good idea! Maybe we could find someone to help out an hour a day. Would make a huge difference. :).