is this normal 4 year old behaviour or could it be aspergers?

[fairylights]

Our ds turned 4 a couple of weeks ago and has always been what I would describe as "hard work". I have long felt that there is something slightly different about him but as he is our eldest I have waited to see really whether he evened out over time.
He is in the nursery class at our local primary where they say that he is getting on fine and although he finds holding scissors/a pen hard work they of course think its too early for this to be a "problem". I haven't mentioned my thoughts about aspergers to them, I just talked to his teacher one day about his behaviour because he was being such a nightmare at home! of course, she said he was lovely at school..
we recently moved a long distance so there was a big change for him there which tbh was very very hard work for him.. but i have been reading a bit online about aspergers and it has rung some bells.
So anyway, this is what he is like:
very bright and capable with letters and numbers - can do addition and subtraction etc..he is very articulate and has language ability beyond his years.
he has always been a bit slow to grasp motor skill type things - as I said, he finds holding a pen properly very challenging and even eating with a fork is a major hassle for him.
he is OBSESSED with trains! specifically diesel locomotives.. he finds it hard to think or talk about much else at home..he could spend hours watching youtube videos of them and looking at train magazines.
He does like being around other kids and does seem to make friends where i have arranged playdates etc.. but actually he is fine with his own company and really only plays well independently, he gets too bossy and controlling to properly play with other kids..
So he is very controlling, especially at home with dh and I - to the extent that it drives me to complete distraction and tears Today was especially bad.. for example at the moment he will not cross a road that requires a "green man" light unless he is the first person to have pressed the "wait" button.
He is happiest when life has a routine - moving house was just a nightmare because EVERYTHING was different and he spent a lot of time at first physically attacking me when he was upset - mostly I think because he was anxious and overwhelmed. This has improved (we have been here 3 months) but we went away for the weekend for the first time last weekend and he went back to be very physically attacking and controlling.
He gets easily upset by loud noises and new experiences - eg the other day we went to see a waterfall and it totally freaked him out, he ran away screaming.

I think those are the main things (!).
However, I will just say that he is very good at conversation and social interaction and is very confident in that sense. He seems to have some level of empathy for other kids, although not so much for us, his family
sorry for the endless post but I just wanted to hear some wise perspectives

[Donnamarie1]

Shuts his eyes sorry!! I need to proof read! Sorry for the grammar mistakes!

[Donnamarie1]

hi, I know this thread is very very old but I am in a situation similar to what you went through. My son is 4 now, he has always been different - so bright and a clever little thing, when he was age 1 and 2 it was fab, he was just a clever little toddler, but when he reached about 2.5 it started to get difficult as he just didn’t seem to socialise well at all. I asked for the health visitor to come and observe him when he had just turned 3, which she did, she came to my home and also to his preschool. She said she thinks he is fine and he has good eye contact and the school say he is fine. Though she did say he craves lots of attention (asking to watch him a lot and always talking constantly) l, she said he seems to have an exceptionally good memory and an odd way of processing information (because he remembers things he has been told/taught and relays them back exactly how they were told to him - for example when she was there he ran into the room, jump on the spot and then reeled of a speech about gravity being a force and pulling him back to the ground when he jumps, his dad had told him this a few weeks earlier), she said he seems about 2 years ahead verbally and intellectually and because of that I am probably expecting too much from him socially and emotionally.. so I pushed my gut instinct aside and tried not to think about it. I told myself that he will be fine by the time he is 4 he is just young, he is now 4 and a couple of months and although he seems to have improved slightly on his social skills (learning gentle hands because he is extremely rough), he is still very awkward. He won’t look at anyone he doesn’t know - at all - infact he shits his eyes and tried to bury his head into my side, which in some situations is difficult for example when I’m trying to walk him into preschool and there is people everywhere I am literally tripping over him and he will not open his eyes to see where he is walking.
So without rambling on anymore than I have I am tired of tormenting myself as to whether or not he is on the spectrum or if I am just trying to find things! Sometimes I feel like I’m going crazy because other people say he’s fine, but the few people who know him well all day he is quirky and different. When someone comes into the house that he knows he just gets so hyper and hides, he will not say hello or any of the normal greetings he just laughs, hides or headbuts them!! My 2 year old just says hello normally! So is he just odd or does this seem like aspergers behaviour?
There’s plenty of other odd things too such as he is very sensory orientated, I can often calm him by lifting his tshirt at the back and ticking his back gently - it completely turns his mood around. He loves to press his face against mine really he’s when he is feeling loving. His hugs nearly crush me. He is so so loving and sometimes pulls an odd face when he’s feeling loving or excited that actually look like a angry face , he pulls his bottom jaw really far forward. He has always done this when excited.
He is also a very anxious child. We were on holiday last week in a caravan and we went out for the day, he worried for the whole day that someone was going to take our caravan while we were gone, every now and gen he would ask us and want reassurance that the caravan would still be there for us later.
fairylights how is your son now?

[fairylights]

well, the OT explained to us that basically ds needs a high level of calming sensory stimulation and showed us how to do kind of pushing and pulling exercises with him, - and wrapping up exercises - bit hard to explain in words but they are very effective! It is all based on deep pressure theory which i am sure you can google. She lent us a book called "the out of sync child" which is all about kids with sensory processing issues - i have started reading it but need to get to grips with it properly!
The key thing that she explained that really helped me was when she watched how his mood could change really quickly (eg from cheerful to angry and frustrated in a moment) and said that external sensory stimulation (such as the TV suddenly being loud/me loudly asking him to do something/the lights being turned off etc) can overload his sensory system, causing the negative response.
Sorry I haven't explained that very well and can't think how to phrase it to explain it but I hope you get the idea!

[fairylights]

so I just noticed this thread that I started nearly 9 months ago now and thought it might be worth an update if there are other parents out there wondering the same things that we were..

the GP we saw referred us to a Paediatrician who we saw in Feb initially. I cannot praise this amazing woman enough - at all times she is listened and really HEARD what we have had to say, and been kind and sympathetic in a way that I have not really experienced from a doctor before (!). She briefly assessed his motor skills which turned out to be delayed, but most of all listened to us describing him.
She then referred us to the local pre-school team for children with aspergers/ASD for assessment, so we have seen a SALT (who said he was 2 years ahead of his age verbally), a social worker (who gave us lots of info about support groups and organizations) and an OT who has probably been the greatest help because she identifed that his sensory processing was having a huge impact on ds's behaviour and we have started learning about a lot of ways to work with this and do things to help with his sensory processing issues. They gave ds a place on a summer school for a week, with other boys his age with similar issues and he had the BEST time - clearly the things they were doing really engaged with his particular brain/way of seeing the world!
The paediatrician got us and the nursery to fill in a GADS questionnaire which is very comprehensive, and the results from that, coupled with all the other assessments meant that the Paediatrician reckons that he is borderline for aspergers but that she would like to assess him further in the coming months as he perhaps too young for a diagnosis at the moment.
All in all, we have been impressed and surprised by the level of support we have so far received and are SOOOOOO glad that we took that intitial step into going to the GP. I think we have been very lucky with the Paediatrician that we have, and I am glad that she wants to keep an eye on ds for the next couple of years whether he has a diagnosis or not.
But I am aware that now that he is moving into proper school without a diagnosis, if he struggles it will take a lot longer to get support sorted out.
And we won't have the support of the great pre-school team any more.
But we are ready to harang and fight for support for ds if and when the need arises.
In the past 9 months things HAVE improved in terms of his behavious/contolling issues, and this may be because he is getting older but I think we are dealing with him so differently now that we have read lots and talked to lots of people who are wiser than us!
Anyway, if any of you that contributed to this thread before read this, THANK YOU so much for prompting us to seek help, we are so glad we did.

[LaydeeC]

fairy,
good news re the GP and referal.
Yes, depending on the outcome, you have taken the first step on a long journey but remember, it is in the interest of your child and the earlier the journey starts, hopefully the better the outcomes
I think it will be difficult for you to get the ed psych involved due to the opinion of school (in fact I think it will be impossible but that is based on my own experience).
You do seem, however, to have the support of your GP and hopefully the CP (which is really important). You have to keep plugging away at school - it is exhausting but you have to do it for your child.
You are one step ahead of me at this stage! When we were referred, we thought it was our parenting at fault but couldn't understand why. When we were told that it was likely our son was ASD, it was like I had entered some sort of parallel universe. I thought my world had come to and end - it was never on my radar. I just couldn't stop crying. And also, there was none of these online resources for support and information!
One of the things I have learnt on our journey (which is ongoing) is that you are the only person (plus his dad) that will fight for your son and he is completely dependent on you to do so.
Thus far we have achieved a lot for my son but the cost has been huge (and I don't mean financially). We are about to enter his transition stage (where decisions are made about his post compulsory education) and again, I am getting my armour out for battle.
Stay strong, remember, you are your son's greatest advocate.

[fairylights]

thought i'd just let you all know that we saw the GP today who really listened to us and has referred us to a community paediatric team for an assessment. Think we feel relieved that she didn't just fob us off and that someone with more experience of AS and associated things will be assessing ds.
She also suggested we talk to school to see if they could get the ed pysch involved as this might help things if he gets a diagnois before he starts school full time next year -does anyone know whether this is even possible at nursery age? And does an Ed psych get involved because the school ask for it or do they get involved as a result of the paediatrician's recommendation?
Think its unlikely school will take it seriously seeing as they think he is fine!
It does feel like we have just taken the first step on what could be a long and exhausting journey...

[mumbar]

My DS can be funny about noise - unless he's making it.

This morning he started getting very unset about tomorrow as they have xmas lunch at school.Apparently he has seen crackers in a box and is scared of them as they make too much noise and hurt his ears. .

He'll be OK though, its more the worry for him, I think.

[SantaObsession]

Good thread.

My DS(4) is also very literal, is sensitive to noise, obsesses about cars in particular and is "challenging" to teach. He does not stop when you ask him to, it's like having a stroppy teenager around. Yet at other times he's quiet, shy, cuddly, playful and a joy to be around.

He's not been diagnosed as my first CAMHs appointment was cancelled today because of the snow, but IMO he certainly has autistic traits. Whatever his diagnosis his future will be a bumpy ride.

[mumbar]

DS is OK with going out somewhere he knows and likes. If its somewhere new he will keep asking questions about it. We seem to have passed the worrying something will happen at home when we're out - like a fire. It seems it he anxieties don't come true he seems to gt passed them.

[fairylights]

how old is your ds Oblomov?
Its a hard one isn't it - on the one hand I would love the GP to say "He's just a difficult child, he'll grow out of it", but on the other hand it would be relief to get a diagnosis so we might be able to work out how to help him..

[Oblomov]

Ds1 is very literal. when I say in a minute, he starts counting, saying thats not 60 seconds. even though we've been over and over this many times before. now i try and say 'in a bit', rather than minute.
We haven't got a diagnosis yet. Becasue he apparently doesn't tick enough of the boxes, but there is something wrong.

Someone said, that AS is normally diagnosed between age 9-12 and is very hard to diagnose, when young.

Think it is a very good idea to go to the Gp without him. Then you can talk freely. Make a list. Then you won't be fobbed off.

[fairylights]

thats interesting mumbar - the thing that has really spurred us into seeking help is that we are just exhausted by the aggression that seems to appear out of nowhere on an often frequent (like a few times a day on bad days) basis.. and the controlling thing which is very tiring and often ridiculous!

[mumbar]

fairylights its a very true comment about it being more obvious as the child gets older. DS seems to be catching up with his peers when they then mature even further.

I'm very lucky not to have the aggressive outbursts, DS is just so passive at times its scary.

[fairylights]

forgot to say too that we have decided not to take ds with us to the GP, don't think it would help anyone and he would only be interrupting and interrogating us the whole way through!

[fairylights]

thanks all. Mumbar I will look at your thread..
LaydeeC that is indeed heart wrenching
It is hard to contemplate the kind of life you describe but I guess we need to face up to it. At the moment ds's behaviour only seems just beyond "normal" but I guess as he and his peers get older the differences will become more obvious if he does have ASD and isn't just an awkward sod
You sound like you have been the most amazing mum, I hope I have it in me to be the same..

[mumbar]

Ah Laydee thats a real heart wrenching and honest post.

I'm having to really limit the laptop time or DS would be glued to it through choice. His latest is google earth. He can load up my town and navigate his way to places we have visited by following roads - its fascinating to watch really.

[LaydeeC]

^^ my son was still watching cbeebies until about 2 years ago! Now all he does is play on his Xbox. Hard sometimes to disentangle what would be 'normal' teen behaviour from AS behaviour - I guess the difference is that my friend's sons have a boundary over which they do not step but my son doesn't.
All AS DCs present differently though and whilst my son would think nothing of giving me a punch, he wouldn't say boo at school - hence the original accusations of it being us. Good reading for us was Tony Attwood.
Finally, although currently 'working out' it only really is on the surface. My son doesn't live at home full time, we have lots of involvement from Social Services which although welcome (we self referred as I wanted him on their radar for when he is older as difficult enough getting resources for children but I would imagine it is a great deal harder for adults) and it isn't the life I thought we would live and even this number of years afterwards, I think I still grieve for that life. I find it particularly hard watching my friend's children getting older. I hate myself for not celebrating their development rather than thinking that should be my son. That said, I wouldn't swap him for the world. I have to constantly remind myself that school 'gets' him and he does seem to be happy there (at times!)

[mumbar]

actually - if anyone on this thread could I have a post in behaviour/ devl on 26th NOV, about DS and his literal behaviour. May give you another insight OP, perhaps you'll see this in your DS, or those of you with children with AS does this sound familiar?

[mumbar]

Laydee LOL at trying again to 'no'.

At the moment DS seems to generally be coping OK. He is quite behind his peers with regards to interests etc, for example he still watches cbeebies as finds other programmes 'scary' , and often doesn't like watching a film 'in case' theres a scary part in it. He has fabulous ideas about things and can go into great detail about them so has that part of imagination, but is on the whole unable to share role play unless he is leading it.

I'm lucky that he's never been a child who has tantrums to 'no', but has panicky outbursts to children moving things that he has set up in a place for playing, it can come across as spoilt behaviour, ie 'won't' share except if he has 3 sweets and 3 children ask for one he'll give them each one even though it leaves him without iyswim.

I'm still sitting on the fence at the mo about talking to the GP as he's doing OK but I am going to have a god chat with his teacher and see if I can get the SENCo to do some observations.

Glad all has worked out for your DS laydee.

[LaydeeC]

^^ mumbar, my son is very literal also! His head teacher was giving a pep talk at school a few months ago and told the boys (all of whom are AS) that 'if at first they don't succeed, they should try and try again'.
Needless to say, my boy has taken this literally and if the constant questioning wasn't bad enough previously, he is now relentless in his asking for games/something he has been told he cannot have!! It is exhausting!!!

[LaydeeC]

fairy, we did not take our son to the GP, I went with DH and our GP spent a long time with us whilst we gave examples of our son's behaviour etc. In isolation, some of the anecdotes were funny and we were all laughing, and then I started crying saying that in its totality, it was exhausting. Our GP agreed that my child's behaviours did seem to be outside the band of 'normal' behaviour so said he was going to refer us to CAMHs. Ball started rolling from there and he was diagnosed with AS the withing 8-10 months.
He is now 13 and it has been a long and difficult journey (and I think we had it relatively easy although our story is very similar to a lot of others on here (incompetent LEA/school etc). We have, however, been fortunate in other areas such as CAMHs and even SS and CAMHs has always fought our corner. So much so, he now has a placement in a specialist AS school. This is a double edged sword as I can appreciate the benefits of such an environment for him but I feel like I have 'lost' him somewhat as it is a boarding provision (although he does seem to be home all the time lol!).
If your child does have an ASD, it is not impossible to get provision but by jesus, you have to be prepared to sell your soul and dignity and fight for it all the way. It is disgraceful that, despite, the SEN CoP and the ECM agenda, LEAs continually fail to provide for children on the spectrum. They literally bring you to your knees in despair at times.
Anyway, don't mean to hijack - just letting you know how he is now in response.
IMO, if your gut instinct is that something is different, then go to your GP. Ours was brilliant so fingers crossed yours will take you seriously and not dismiss your worries.