Please help us to improve Mumsnet - join the Mumsnet Talk Testing Panel

[JustineMumsnet]

It’s no secret that Mumsnet is OLD and as such Talk can be a bit creaky and buggy, particularly when we release new features.

We've been working hard for a while now behind the scenes in preparation for re-platforming to a more up to date and agile architecture and code base. It's taken a while because MN is so big and old but later this year we very much hope to be able to move over to a new and improved platform.

We will be keeping the functionality largely unchanged for now (the aim will be to make updates and add more features once we're on the new platform) but we are planning some limited improvements to the user experience and to some aspects that don't function at all well or where there are large inconsistencies across the desktop and mobile versions of the site.

For example we'll be modernising PMs, image uploading and the way long threads load (to speed things up).

We are really keen to get this right and to minimise disruption, and so we'd love your help us to shape and test the new platform. Please click here if you would like to be part of the testing group, and we will be in touch soon with more details.

(nb At the moment we're just focusing on the web version of the site, so if you only use the app, then we don't need you to participate just yet - we'll be looking at that later.)

Big thanks.

[Onceuponatime1818]

@JustineMumsnet

Do you know how many of your moderators are black?

[Lndnmummy]

Hello mumsnet,
I’ve got some questions and would welcome a dialogue around racism on mumsnet. Hopefully we can all agree it’s rife. At present I strongly suggest that mumsnet is not a safe space for black posters to voice their views. They are not being protected and really let down by the lack of moderation. I’d like to think that this is not due to ill intent but perhaps more so to a lack of understanding of what racism really is. I have some specific questions I’d like answered and a failure to a satisfactory answer/action from mumsnet will lead to me and many others to leave the site (currently a fee paying member).

1. what is your current moderation policy? I know the talk guidelines but what is the moderation policy.
   
   
2. Is all moderation activity reactive (so reliant upon other posters flagging issues) or do you do any proactive monitoring of thread? If so what’s the framework/principles? Is it done manually or by software flagging certain key words?
   
   
3. How many,if any, of your moderators are black? What does the senior leadership team in mumsnet look like in terms of ethnicity? Transparency would be welcome here.
   
   
4. How do you view your responsibility as the owners of the platform in terms of ensuring mumsnet is a safe space for all users? Do you do anything beyond reactive moderations (which by default would be highly subjective). Are you actively doing any anti racism work? If yes, where? And if no, then why not?
   
   
5. What’s your internal D&I policy?
   
   
6. What actions, if any are taken to ensure that moderators are appropriately trained to moderate? Is there a training programme? If so what does that training look like? Is it limited to induction training or are moderators undertaking any regular CPD training?
   
   
7. What efforts, if any, are taken to ensure that the entire user base of mumsnet are safe from harm and harassment on mumsnet? What specific actions are taken to ensure that protected categories and those most vulnerable have their needs met?
   
   I’d welcome a discussion and would propose MNHQ to instigate a group conversation between the senior leadership team and mumsnetters of colour that have suffered recently during their use of this platform. Perhaps if a dialogue is opened and there is a willingness to improve the use experience of WOC then perhaps there is a way forward for not only white UK based users but the rest of us too. Thanks

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi OnceUponaTime1818 and Lndnmummy

I'm really disappointed you think Mumsnet isn't a welcoming place for people of colour and would welcome the opportunity to discuss what more we can do to change that - we absolutely don't tolerate racist posts will always delete them when reported and ban those who persist in making them. I'm not sure of the particular circumstances (thread and poster) that you're alluding to but if you think we've made a mistake we'd be very happy to look again.

[Onceuponatime1818]

@JustineMumsnet

Thank you, a great place to start would be transparent answers to @Lndnmummy questions above.

[JustineMumsnet]

[quote Onceuponatime1818]@JustineMumsnet

Thank you, a great place to start would be transparent answers to @Lndnmummy questions above.[/quote]
What I'd really like to do is to try to understand the problem - you seem to be implying that specific policies and representation is the answer to it - and you might be right - but can we first try to define the issues as you see them? You seem to be alluding to a specific response by our mod team as an example of why more training is required - could you explain some more? Not trying to be unhelpful or opaque here - just trying to get to heart of the matter.

[BIWI]

[quote Onceuponatime1818]@BIWI

We shouldn’t have to argue our case though, it should be removed, and even reported. Racism is illegal. The poster should be banned.[/quote]
Yes you are quite right. On all counts. It is shocking that sometimes it has to be pointed out that a post really is racist/sexist/misogynistic/ageist/homophobic. You'd expect the moderators to be more aware/sensitive to those issues, especially as it's not just about Talk Guidelines, but also a legal thing.

[Lndnmummy]

@JustineMumsnet, hello!
I’m not sure how much clearer I can be on the problem statement. The problem is racism.
In terms of “defining the issue”, again I’m not sure how much more clarity I can add. In my opinion, and that of others too, the “issue defined” is racism and as my questions suggest (or imply) I think the problem is systemic, at MNHQ.

What we are talking about here, in short, is way above and beyond insular examples, posts, or even posters and threads. Whilst I and many others can share many many examples I’m not sure that approach is the right one. That suggests to me, a defensive and reactive stance on moderation which again is likely to be subjective. If I point out an example of where I believe the moderator is incorrect and you disagree, where does that leave us? Such an approach is very unlikely to get to the “heart of the matter”.

I believe, perhaps in contrast to yourself, that the heart of the matter actually lie in the questions I’ve raised above. At the absolute core of the heart of the matter lies an acknowledgment from MNHQ that racism is rife on the boards. After that acknowledgement there would need to be a strategic conversation around why that is and how to remedy and move forward. I think my questions above should be helpful in that regard.
I feel your response (and I might be wrong, I do note your comment on trying to be helpful) is already a reactive and subjective one where the onus is put on me (us) to “prove” what’s racist so that you (as in mumsnet not you personally) can comeback and objection handle as to why a b c is not racist. This approach, is counter productive and unhelpful and would likely end up in a tit for tat much like the threads do. This in turn, would further alienate your posters of colour. Much like the latest government report suggesting there is no issue of systemic racism in the UK.
I suggest (again) that the correct approach would be for mumsnet to acknowledge, listen, reflect and redo. And get it right.

[Onceuponatime1818]

I second everything written by @Lndnmummy

Thank you @Lndnmummy

[JustineMumsnet]

[quote Lndnmummy]@JustineMumsnet, hello!
I’m not sure how much clearer I can be on the problem statement. The problem is racism.
In terms of “defining the issue”, again I’m not sure how much more clarity I can add. In my opinion, and that of others too, the “issue defined” is racism and as my questions suggest (or imply) I think the problem is systemic, at MNHQ.

What we are talking about here, in short, is way above and beyond insular examples, posts, or even posters and threads. Whilst I and many others can share many many examples I’m not sure that approach is the right one. That suggests to me, a defensive and reactive stance on moderation which again is likely to be subjective. If I point out an example of where I believe the moderator is incorrect and you disagree, where does that leave us? Such an approach is very unlikely to get to the “heart of the matter”.

I believe, perhaps in contrast to yourself, that the heart of the matter actually lie in the questions I’ve raised above. At the absolute core of the heart of the matter lies an acknowledgment from MNHQ that racism is rife on the boards. After that acknowledgement there would need to be a strategic conversation around why that is and how to remedy and move forward. I think my questions above should be helpful in that regard.
I feel your response (and I might be wrong, I do note your comment on trying to be helpful) is already a reactive and subjective one where the onus is put on me (us) to “prove” what’s racist so that you (as in mumsnet not you personally) can comeback and objection handle as to why a b c is not racist. This approach, is counter productive and unhelpful and would likely end up in a tit for tat much like the threads do. This in turn, would further alienate your posters of colour. Much like the latest government report suggesting there is no issue of systemic racism in the UK.
I suggest (again) that the correct approach would be for mumsnet to acknowledge, listen, reflect and redo. And get it right.[/quote]
I don't believe that we systematically allow racist posts to stand when they are reported, no. If you think that's the case then that's very worrying and clearly we need to look into it, so if you could provide examples of that I'd really like to know about them? Our policy is to disallow racism by deleting racist posts that are brought to our attention. Obviously we don't pre-moderate so we do rely on users to report racism if they see it and to ban posters with racist views - of which of course, sadly, there have been some over the years.

[BIWI]

In support of @Lndnmummy, I think asking for examples is really not helpful at this stage.

There are/have been so many examples of racist (and other 'ist') posts that haven't been dealt with swiftly enough that it would be impossible for any of us to list those.

I made a throwaway comment up thread about arguing my case with MNHQ, and @Onceuponatime1818 rightly took me to task for posting that. We shouldn't have to argue our case with the moderators. If we report something for racism, or sexism, or ageism, or disablism etc, then we would expect the moderators to listen to that report and not have to be argued into deleting a post.

And I'm afraid that what then happens is posters become irate and post something about the offensive poster, and their post gets deleted, rather than the original offensive post.

I appreciate that @Lndnmummy is posting specifically about racism, whereas I'm widening the conversation a bit here, but it I think that her questions about the MNHQ mod team, in terms of diversity, as well as your internal policies and training around these key issues are really important ones.

Naturally, and very sadly, there are always going to be racist (and sexist, homophobic, disablist, ageist, etc) posters on a site as big as Mumsnet. But knowing that those posters and their posts will be dealt with swiftly is really important for the rest of us.

[JustineMumsnet]

@BIWI

In support of *@Lndnmummy*, I think asking for examples is really not helpful at this stage.

There are/have been so many examples of racist (and other 'ist') posts that haven't been dealt with swiftly enough that it would be impossible for any of us to list those.

I made a throwaway comment up thread about arguing my case with MNHQ, and *@Onceuponatime1818* rightly took me to task for posting that. We shouldn't have to argue our case with the moderators. If we report something for racism, or sexism, or ageism, or disablism etc, then we would expect the moderators to listen to that report and not have to be argued into deleting a post.

And I'm afraid that what then happens is posters become irate and post something about the offensive poster, and their post gets deleted, rather than the original offensive post.

I appreciate that *@Lndnmummy* is posting specifically about racism, whereas I'm widening the conversation a bit here, but it I think that her questions about the MNHQ mod team, in terms of diversity, as well as your internal policies and training around these key issues are really important ones.

Naturally, and very sadly, there are always going to be racist (and sexist, homophobic, disablist, ageist, etc) posters on a site as big as Mumsnet. But knowing that those posters and their posts will be dealt with swiftly is really important for the rest of us.

I agree that users shouldn't have to argue the case about racist posts. I'm not asking for a list - I'm asking for the gist. We can't improve on / fix a problem if it's not clear what we're trying to fix?

[JustineMumsnet]

And of course we are far from perfect but it's certainly true that we respond on average much quicker to user reports than any of the major (significantly richer) social media platforms.

[Onceuponatime1818]

@JustineMumsnet



18/05/2021 14:37 YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet

Hello everyone. We've received a number of reports about this thread and have already removed some posts that broke our Talk Guidelines.

This type of discussion can attract subtly (and not to subtle) racist posts, which we don't accept on the boards.


So for example, you’ve allowed a thread to continue, which has been acknowledged by a moderator to “attract racist posts”

[Lndnmummy]

@JustineMumsnet
“I don't believe that we systematically allow racist posts to stand when they are reported, no. If you think that's the case then that's very worrying and clearly we need to look into it, so if you could provide examples of that I'd really like to know about them? Our policy is to disallow racism by deleting racist posts that are brought to our attention. Obviously we don't pre-moderate so we do rely on users to report racism if they see it and to ban posters with racist views - of which of course, sadly, there have been some over the years.”

So it’s back to my questions then isn’t it? WHO decides what is racist “when it’s being reported”? Who? White mumsnet moderatators? Or black ones Who makes that call (kindly refer to Q3) And what do they base that decision on (refer to Q1) Do they get any training (kindly refer to Q6).

And how does mumsnet in addition to reactive moderation that clearly isn’t working ensure that POC are safe from hard (kindly refer to Q4,5,7)

We can go around and round the mulberry bush a 1000 times but the questions will remain until they are answered.

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi, I can see your point for sure. There’s a strong argument to delete threads if we think are they likely to attract racist posts rather than to be vigilant and delete them. I think I’ve identified the thread in question so we will have a re-think/re-set on this. Re the make up of the team - yes we have Black moderators and training but to be honest I don’t think it necessarily follows that you have to be of colour to spot or care about racism. As said it’s against our guidelines to allow racism on mumsnet - in this case we were deleting any racist posts on the thread - but I agree that it would be better practice to zap threads like this as soon as they are reported and not necessarily allow the benefit of the doubt. Thanks very much for your input.

[Lndnmummy]

@JustineMumsnet hello me again. On the BMN board there is a current thread about the disappearance of young black men. It’s an extremely distressing topic, as I’m sure you’d understand. This is being discussed sensible. Until it’s not. A poster vades in as follows:

TheVoiceInMyHead
Could it be related to increasing gang violence? Hit over the head and thrown in the water, with it then being hard to ascertain which bruises happened before or after death, etc?

@JustineMumsnet this is one example having just been on mumsnet for the last minutes. The above post is racist. Why on earth would it be gang related? Unless you were making an assumption that black people go missing because they are gang members. This post is made on a thread where, for example, Richard Okorogheye tragic passing has been discussed. He was a young boy with health issues and his mother and family have been betrayed appallingly by the police. For someone to just vade in and go “is it gang related” is horrific. Posts like this, bring deep distress and trauma to people on this board who spend their entire lives having to prove themselves to people. It’s triggering beyond belief and causes mental distress and trauma. This is daily, toxic, and systemic.

[DawnMumsnet]

Hi Lndnmummy,

In Justine's absence, just wanted to say thanks for flagging this racist post. We do of course understand your concerns about it.

We've checked behind the scenes and can see that it was posted by a previously banned troll who has now been banned again. The post was reported to us yesterday evening and was deleted within ten minutes of us receiving the report, so we hope that gives you some reassurance.

Please continue to report any posts which concern you.