talk guidelines for "threads like this "

[peridito]

Hi ,deleted thread on 26/11/ by Neonomore .

What are the guidelines that this transgressed ?

Was there an assumption that the OP was discussing suicide . What was the thread "like" in your view ?

I've looked at talk guidelines but it hasn't helped .

TIA
I thought it was someone having a MH crisis .

[Alrighteo]

Perhaps @MNHQ could confirm whether their ability to post was 'temporarily suspended' or not?

I'm pretty sure from other posters who I have been in private message contact with on other similar threads, that they'd have been banned. A few posters I was pm-ing in similarish circs ended up with threads deleted and a couple have pm-d from new accounts saying that they had been banned.

[TabbyStar]

They weren't banned were they? I thought it was just that that thread was deleted.

[Alrighteo]

I didn't mention it on the thread as then the poster would be banned again for being a PBP!

[Alrighteo]

That said, I believe I've seen the OP here with a new name posting. Well I suspect it's them, no way of knowing.

[Alrighteo]

What MN does, is leave a message advising the poster to contact the Samaritans, delete the thread and ban the OP.

[TabbyStar]

Ah I got the order of the letters wrong, sorry, and it wasn't you anyway, I just remembered you sounded knowledgable!

I was worried she might have accidentally taken too much in trying to medicate herself because the last few posts seemed less coherent, there was no discussion of suicide at all as far as I can remember and I was on the thread as it was deleted.

I still feel unclear what the protocol is, and whether MN does take any action if someone seems vulnerable. I understand there are loads of complexities involved, but I wonder whether that would make people less likely to report a thread and remove the support from the OP.

[Aridane]

Was it Ariadne or a name like that? She had a good grip on the drug situation

I was the poster who wrote on how the quetiapine should be working at the right dose and to get back for an urgent medication review. And to refill her prescription as she had run out.

And, yes, I was borderline appalled at the deletion of the thread and the seemingly semi callous deletion message. Agree with @Alrighteo here. Unless of course the thread tipped into suicide methods discussion...

[peridito]

Why are we thinking that the OP has been banned ? Maybe blocked for the time being ? Because she is likely still to be fragile ?

I don't think my wording is that special and I absolutely refuse to believe that MN couldn't have come up with something better themselves .They don't need some random poster suggesting wording for them .

This from MN
While the term 'these sorts of threads' does sound odd, the alternative is to be clear about it and say 'threads about suicide' or 'threads about self harm'
is bonkers .Of course there is a more suitable alternative .

MN may ,as said ,have taken guidance from Mind and The Samaritins .But I really struggle to believe that either organisation suggested or approved that wording .

The guidelines from the NSPA I've linked to above
for online community moderators in responding to suicidal content were developed after consultation with a huge range of stakeholders and were led by Mind
www.nspa.org.uk/resources/supporting-online-communities-click-to-view-the-guidance/
and having read them they don't suggest anything like the response on MN.

[Somethingsometime]

Perfect wording peridito

I really hope they haven’t banned her, that would be completely unnecessary....

[Alrighteo]

Smacks of 'we don't have time for this. we want nothing to do with mental health crises, go away, we don't want you posting here'

[Alrighteo]

I think they banned her too though.

[Alrighteo]

Ye - like your last wording Perdito.

[TabbyStar]

Something like that would help to reassure us too.

[peridito]

I remain really upset about this ,anxious about the effect on the OP and not totally reassured by MN's response .

I keep thinking of "deletion statements "

OP we've seen your post and are worried about you . Please phone 999 if you haven't already done so.
We think you are very vunerable at the moment and we are going to remove this thread to protect you from the possibilty of being exposed to unhelpful posts and also to avoid the possibilty that you may post information that you would not normally wish revealed on a public forum .

We will try and message you offline .

[peridito]

I do understand about the deleting ,there could have been a risk that unhelpful posters joined in or that as Neo deterioted more she might have started putting up posts that would have alarmed us all even more .Difficult when we are so helpless to offer practical support .

In a ideal world MN would be able to moderate the thread as it was progressing and delete rubbish and offer appropriate advice and support .

I absolutely agree that just yanking the thread with no attempt to explain why and signposting the Samaritans rather than repeating the advice we'd given ( and the advice given by The National Suicide Prevention Association ) to ring 999 or go to A&E .

Though TBH Neo said she'd phoned 999.So an even more urgent intervention would IMO have been warranted . The org I keep quoting talks about contacting the police and using the IP address to locate someone . I imagine this is difficult and I also imagine it's not something MN would even attempt .

And if you're reading this MN have a look at attached re confidentiality .

[Alrighteo]

The ONLY advice in that situation was - go to A&E immediately.
Not deleting her.

[Alrighteo]

It's like telling you to ring the local quack when you're bleeding profusely. Oh aye. Ring the old Samaritans there.

[peridito]

As we can't discuss the moderation of this particular thread it's tricky but I do wonder a bit about the continued reference by MN about their response to posters mentioning suicide .As this seems irrelevant .

But if we are discussing a moderators response to a poster who they think is suicidal then I do wonder why their response wasn't more closely aligned to the guidance from the National Suicide Prevention Association .

I share all your frustration @Righteo but I know we aren't going to get anywhere here . I won't be holding my breath expecting to see revised Talk guidelines .

www.nspa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/NSPA-Guidelines-Responding-to-Suicidal-Content-Online.pdf

[Alrighteo]

And especially MN who claim to be oh so supportive and aware of mental illness..... I'd like a pretty swift review, seek proper advice and update us on your hopefully renewed policies.

[Alrighteo]

You're giving the impression 'we don't want your sort around these here parts'. 'You're not even fit to be allowed on a supportive forum'.

Can you imagine how devastating that felt? That OP had mentioned as far as I recall that the internet was the only ones she felt cared or something along those lines. And you withdrew that lifeline from her.

It was clear to the dogs on the street, that she was in a severe crisis - not attention seeking or anything else. She was being turned away from every door she kept trying, but that's where the beauty of MN comes in - we kept encouraging her to go back. Some who commented I'm sure would have had direct experience with MH teams.

I think you made the wrong call.

[Alrighteo]

Basically, you're discriminating on the basis of mental illness. She is not allowed to discuss her crisis, yet someone who has severe abdominal pain can post as much as they like.

Poor show.

[Alrighteo]

As well as deleting the thread, did you also ban the poster?

Telling someone in what was obviously a severe mental health crisis to contact the Samaritans was infantile in this instance. It was clear that she needed immediate urgent medical and psychiatric help. Not some volunteer who listens and says nothing.

I suggest you seek advice from professionals, not charities in future.

[peridito]

Thank you for your helpful response.

In terms of the moderation of that particular thread we're afraid we don't think it's fair to discuss that on the boards,
Of course not .I'm sorry if discussing my experience of MN moderation of a thread where someone seemed in a dangerous situation made you think we wanted to breach confidentiality .

I'm sure you could come up with better wording without our advice but...

.I'm absolutely not skilled in this area but would suggest loosing the " we don't allow threads like this " and including something along the lines of ".we feel this thread has gone as far as it can here and that further public discussion is not going to be helpful.We are therefore removing the thread from our online platform but hope that contact off the board between MN and yourself might be possible and helpful .
Professional bodies recommend that people in crisis

call 111 or their GP for emergency out of hours appointment

or ring 999 or go to A&E "

I have read some of the published advice for moderators in situations like this and suggested template responses, and it doesn't quite tally with what I have seen here . I guess a large organisation like MN has probably had in house training which perhaps diverges a little from advice printed on line so perhaps that explains the divergence .

Thank you again for responding .

[HebeMumsnet]

Hello, everyone.

We just wanted to pop in again to answer the questions since our last post. The main concern seems to be about the wording of our deletion message.

We do absolutely take your point that it sounds a bit 'bald', particularly on threads where an OP is having a really difficult time. The wording of these posts we decided on with guidance from The Samaritans and Mind, as we felt that we simply weren't experts on the subject. While the term 'these sorts of threads' does sound odd, the alternative is to be clear about it and say 'threads about suicide' or 'threads about self harm', and we suspect we were advised to avoid those terms as they might be potentially triggering for someone already in a bad place.

We do usually contact posters off the boards in these situations to pass on our list of mental health support contacts, so there is personal contact from MNHQ there. The message is really intended just to let everyone know that a thread has been deleted (without going into personal detail about the OP's situation or leaving people with the impression they might not have been genuine, or anything like that). Unfortunately, the outcome is that the deletion message itself can then feel a little 'cold', and we do understand your concerns about that, but we think it's probably the 'least worst' option.

We'd always be happy to hear other suggestions, though, and we will certainly run this past those professional organisations again when we next look at updating and checking all our processes with threads that mention suicide.

In terms of the moderation of that particular thread, we're afraid we don't think it's fair to discuss that on the boards, hence not giving more information on the thread or in the deletion message, but we have been in contact with the OP of that thread, as we said.

Thanks again for passing on your thoughts. We do appreciate it. Hope that goes some way towards answering your questions.

[TabbyStar]

I agree very strongly with perdito