MNHQ here: Have you been made to wear high heels at work?

[RowanMumsnet]

Greetings!

Parliament's Petitions Committee has been in touch to ask whether MNers would like to feed in to its investigation into women being required to wear high heels at work.

The investigation is in response to a petition on the Parliament website asking the government to 'make it illegal for a company to require women to wear high heels at work'. The petition has had nearly 150,000 signatures, and as a result the petitions committee is going to look into the matter more thoroughly.

This is what they say:

"If you've been personally affected by this issue we want to hear from you."

"Your experiences will help us understand the problem. It will also give us an idea of how many people this affects and help us to decide what action to recommend to the Government."

"When sharing your experiences, please include:

• What were the circumstances that led to you being made to wear high heels? For example: what type of work was involved? Were you a permanent or a temporary member of staff?
• Did you challenge the requirement? If so, what was the outcome?
• Did you think that the requirement was reasonable?
• What does a reasonable work dress code mean to you?"

"Please note that the user name you choose will appear with your comment. Please do not name specific companies/employers in your post."

If you prefer, you can respond directly to the Committee via this link.

Thanks
MNHQ

That's interesting - can you point to part of that law which specifically states that it's illegal to make women wear high heels?

I had to wear them in the late 70's along with skirts - smart office wear - Blue chip, back office. I was 20 - I didn't question it. I complied.

1984 - sales job, printing company. I was hauled into Director's office one day for wearing trousers with flats rather than a skirt and heels. From then on I complied under protest. I liked the job.

Late 1980's - 1990's training delivery - blue chip corporate clients. It was strongly suggested that heels were part of the dress code - and I was reprimanded for being too casual although heels were not specifically mentioned. I complied when it was a key event otherwise I didn't but I was always smart. Always wore a jacket, earrings, make-up, smart shoes rather than sandals, tights if wearing a skirt.

In all cases we are talking about heeled court shoe/ pumps

Since then I have not worn heels at work. I dress down a bit at work or wear trouser suits with flats or low-heeled boots.

I have knee ligament problems and lower back problems and lumps on my heels, (Haglund's deformity) which make shoe choice difficult. I will not be forced to wear heels again - I simply can't walk in them any more.

Dress codes reasonable and I support them. Dress codes should be:

--> identifiable, (uniforms),
--> a "role" rather than a person so "lawyer" not Goth - (although of course you can be both but I want to deal with the lawyer),
--> professional
_--> practical, safe, suitable, comfortable
--> allow others to feel at ease -(I don't want my male doctor examining me in his cycling shorts or my son's headteacher discussing his SEN in her short skirt and killer heels or my mother's care worker trying to deal with her dementia in full burka.

IN most cases you accept the job and all the requirements that go with it. That includes shift work, having to drive, working with people you would prefer not to spend time with and being in an office/factory/van when you would rather sit in the sun. Adhering to a dress code is part of that.

High heels are not necessary though. Smart flats or very low heels are fine

Yes. In the 1980s when I worked for a city recruitment firm. Along with many other women I travelled to work in trainers and changed once there.

Yes. As a student doing bar and waitressing work. I had low heels and a very smart pencil skirt on and was told to change into a shorter skirt and higher heels. Disgraceful.

As an adult I've had insinuations at conference etc that I should be wearing heels. I wear beautifully tailored very smart suits and I'm damned if I'm going to do a 22 hour day in heels. I find it agony. This is in a scientific/medical field btw. No need to wear heels. Yes I challenged, diplomatically and with humour but with a bit of bite as well. The issue was dropped but I'm sure my superiors were not amused.

A dress code is often appropriate- in the lab I expect to have to wear appropriate safety gear. In the office day to day smart casual. When meeting clients business smart. Business smart to me is a well cut dress plus blazer or pant/skirt suit with smart shoes. Minimal makeup, no loud accessories or colours. No bare legs. Not much skin on show. Elegant and smart. There is absolutely no need at all for six inch heels.

Dress codes are fine. Being forced into shoes which are uncomfortable and damaging is not.

Good on you MMHQ!

Not high heels, so not entirely relevant, but I work for an organisation which, until six months ago, forbade women to wear trousers to work.

Not cabin crew!

Stop - we've already noted that 'enforced' wearing of heels on women is unlawful and there is a remedy. But two things:

1. You can't 'very easily' instigate an action at an ET. You need some knowledge, confidenc and money. If your union can't or won't pay for the barrister then you're a bit screwed.
2. This petition is as much about making it shameful to 'enforce' any measure to make women wear heels. It helps to establish a culture.

I'd imagine most of this enforced heels stuff is happening in either 'blue chip' companies with a mistaken notion of 'business dress' or in small concerns run by a mini despot.

I think the biggest problem is the fact that bosses can make you do these kinds of things because they can fire you and know you are unlikely to stand up for your self because there are hardly any workers rights. Particularly within the first 2 years. Not many people would possess the financial and emotional resources for a legal battle.
Many employers do things that break the law because they know they can get away with it. My friends boss will not let him take his annual holiday (he finished last year with 3 and a half weeks holiday left). He doesn't stand up to it because he doesn't want to lose his job. Another company I know of do not provide their workers with references after they finish, they just throw the reference letters straight in the bin.
These things need to be addressed.

I worked for an estate agent owned by a woman- It was mandatory when out with clients to war smart, sensible , high heeled shoes- lowest permitted was a court heel but that was not liked. I wore flat, Clarks professional slip-ons and was told not to wear them again. I ignored them and still wore them. I got sacked in the end ( end of probation as I didn't conform to professional attire) as I wouldn't conform to heeled shoes. This was 10 years ago. I have never been asked by another company since . If women have to wear them so do men in my book.

Bitoutofpractice

While I think it is outrageous to ask women to wear heels to work, it seems extraordinary to me that they are getting into a lather about this when there are so many other issues around discrimination and inequality every day that seem to be ignored. Is it because it was in the Daily Mail?

There are loads of important issues and this is one, when a person is sacked or isn't hired because they can do their job but don't where heels to do it or wont wear heels to do it, there is a knock on financial impact for that person. All the little things make a big thing. we fight to wear what we want with out be told by others. Its our choice what we wear to work.

I thought the problem was that courts had ruled that it wasn't against sex discrimination legislation to have different dress codes for men and women and that it was OK to require women to wear heels unless they had a disability?

Never been subjected to a requirement for heels, but certainly faced tutting in many roles for wearing practical boots with a trouser suit (for disability reasons that the tutters may or may not have known about).

@ThisPanCan

Mrscog - we've used this a couple of times re other issues, that the Eq. Act is simply not being enforced.

Is it like making a bloke wear a tie? Erm..massively so.

I'm at work now, bloke, wearing DMs and cargo trousers. The very thought that a female colleague may be 'forced' to wear heels against her wish would demand action.

And hi there Rowan - long time no hear! Hope all is well with you.

Alroight there Pan

Slightly off-topic but since fees were introduced for taking cases to employment tribunals, the number of cases has plummeted. The TUC has done research suggesting that cases involving sex discrimination (as well as maternity and pregnancy discrimination) have been particularly affected.

The government is preparing to release a review and recommendations around the issue I think (last thing I heard anyway).

V interested to hear the employment solicitors' POVs though!

Absolutely not. I'm a TA. Heels aren't exactly forbidden but they definitely get a few raised eyebrows and sarky "ooh you look very glam" comments when anyone dares to wear them!

I am a vocational assessor and teach level 5 management meaning I go into a number of professional workplaces. Currently, one of my male learners is suspended. He came to work on Monday dressed smartly with tailored shorts rather than trousers as it is so hot. He was sent home for contravening the dress code so he went home to change. He came back to work in a knee length dress. He was suspended. He doesn't work in a customer facing environment and is articulate, intelligent and highly professional but he feels that women in his workplace are at an advantage in the heat as they do not have to cover their lower legs whereas men do. It may sound a touch ridiculous but, when I thought it through, I'm not convinced it's too different an issue from the high heels.

• What were the circumstances that led to you being made to wear high heels? For example: what type of work was involved? Were you a permanent or a temporary member of staff? The closest I have been to this is having no option to wear trousers (skirt suit uniform) when being up an 8ft ladder putting up Christmas decorations fell under the 'other duties commensurate with post' heading (as a trainee manager in retail). I also suspect that having a balance disorder and being on the short side, it was a health and safety issue for me to be up there, too. Trouser suits were an option for other women in the company, but the store manager vetoed them within his branch.
• Did you challenge the requirement? If so, what was the outcome? I said I found it inappropriate and my (male) senior manager laughed at me and told me I would face disciplinary action if I did not complete my work as directed. I didn't take it any further, it was just one incident in a long line of appallingly sexist and at times physically dangerous situations I was put in as part of that job.
• Did you think that the requirement was reasonable? No, there were upward of 40 staff in the area who were taller, including some staff who were trained in working at height, and were more suitably dressed for the occasion, in the immediate vicinity. I also had a more suitable change of clothing in my locker, which I was told would waste company time to get changed into - even though I was working mandatory unpaid overtime at the time.
• What does a reasonable work dress code mean to you?" A reasonable work dress code should be presentable and fit for purpose e.g. if standing for long hours, comfort should be a factor, PPE should be available in a size that fits, if it is required, and people should expect to be able to dress modestly if this is their preference, whether as part of a religious or cultural commitment, or simply by personal choice.

As discussed up thread, all of the above could likely be challenged under legislation already in place if I had wished to pursue it via that route. However, as a new graduate, I was not in a financial or employment position where I could take legal action against an employer, and I recognise the importance of challenging potentially harmful workplace culture as well as being aware of the legal framework already in place.

I've posted about what happened to my feet elsewhere. I have never been compelled to wear heels but certainly bought into the idea that they were necessary for looking smart and for being fashionable. I didn't know that I had particular problems with the structure of my feet that meant over time, I would sustain nerve damage as a result of the foolish choices of footwear I made over the years. I have spent the last six years in pain and am now recovering from foot surgery to address this problem. I'm on my early thirties. I will never wear heels again, even if I wanted to. Ties look very uncomfortable, especially in the heat, but they don't cause chronic pain, nerve damage and end up requiring surgery as a result of wearing them.

Yup, I was forced to wear heels whilst working at a major department store. I'm not talking kitten heels either, I mean 6 inch stilettos.

We were only allowed to take them off between 6-7pm & anyone not wearing them would be disciplined and sent home.

I challenged this because I have Ménière's disease & can often go dizzy. Was told to leave & eventually did.

The blisters were bad but nothing compared to the back pain!

I think a smart dress code should mean something formal & comfortable.

I only really wear heels to feel "sexy" on a rare night out. I don't need to be sexy for work.

About 18 yes ago I worked in London, in the City, and heels were part of the uniform. No options, unless you wanted to use higher heels. If I remember rightly the uniform shoes had a 2 inch heel. We were given funds to buy our own, from X shop in X colour and style of court shoe, so no choice.

Sorry, posted too soon.

I did tell my bosses that the shoes hurt my -inherited- bunions and the response was "it's the uniform, you all have the same"

I'm not convinced it's too different an issue from the high heels

Head/desk.

So the parallels between being forced to wear heels and not being allowed to wear shorts are....??

I'd prefer equal pay actually.

I have had to wear steel toed boots at work, and I know men who have had to shave their beards (to fit the fire retardant masks) but really resent being paid 20% less than the blokes.

Don't really give much of a second thought to uniforms or clothes restrictions: especially for health and safety; or if someone is representing their company in a public facing role; or is selling products which have to do with appearance (in effect is modelling the stuff they're selling).

I want to be paid as much as a man for doing the same work.
Now that's a petition I'd sign.

No but I was speaking to my neighbour - male, early 60's - just yesterday lunchtime.

Said I had to go as had to get ready for a meeting. He replied something about "off to get the skirt and high heels on". Eh, no but tells you something about perceptions.

Yes. I worked in a well- known opticians a few years back. Had to wear a god-awful Uniform (Fair enough) but it was absolutely clear that we were expected to wear heels all day. As I was 'front of house' I was also not permitted to sit down. Ever. It was agony. One day I turned up in flats as I couldn't stand it any more and got roundly questioned and told not to wear them again. By my female manager! Who was allowed to sit down!

Luckily no.

I have arthritis and have done for a while. It would be too painful for me to wear heels for any length of time, and certainly wouldn't do my joints any good.

Its nothing like being asked to wear a tie, or many other things either tbh. Wearing a tie doesn't contribute to health issues.

Can you/they also consider that it is also wrong that women are often made to wear make-up at work?

Yes. I was cabin crew for an international airline based in London. I loved wearing the heels and they looked fab with the Red uniform. I also had bunion surgery during my employment and was permitted flat shoes for a long period after. I went back to heels when I could and my feet did hurt after long flights but I couldn't bear flats in the uniform, it didn't look right. Never took offence that women had to wear heels at this company.