Do we send too many women to prison?

[FrancesMumsnet]

We've been asked by the Prison Reform Trust (@prtUK) to find out what Mumsnetters think about women and prison.

Over 10,000 women were imprisoned in England and Wales in 2011, more than double the number 15 years ago. Eighty-one per cent of women sentenced to prison are there for non-violent offences.

New Ministry of Justice figures show that the self-harm rate for women prisoners is over ten times higher than for men. Over half of women in prison report having experienced domestic violence and one-third sexual abuse.

Over 17,240 children were separated from mothers serving time in 2010. An estimated two babies are born in English prisons every week, although data is no longer collected centrally.

In a YouGov poll, launched today by the Prison Reform Trust, treatment for drug and alcohol misuse and mental healthcare were the top solutions to get public backing for reducing non-violent offending by women.

Government research concludes that community sentences are more effective than short prison terms. Independent research shows that community women's centres provide a safe place for women to address underlying problems while maintaining care of their children.

The Prison Reform Trust is calling on government to support community solutions to women?s offending. They say that improving the system for women should also benefit men.

What do you think? Do we send too many women to prison for minor offences - or is it wrong to make this a gender issue? How should society strike the balance between the needs of children and their parents' behaviour? Should we send people to prison for non-violent offences? Do you have confidence in community sentencing?

The Prison Reform Trust provides advice and information, conducts research and works with government to create a just, humane and effective prison system. It relies entirely on voluntary donations. Watch the Prison Reform Trust's SmartJustice for Women film. Watch their 2012 lecture on women’s justice.

Thanks, MNHQ

[GothAnneGeddes]

There's a really good book on the issue called "Eve was Framed" by Helena Kennedy QC, which is a very good overview of all the issues.

I would argue that yes, we do send too many women to prison and there are better option out there.

[scottishmummy]

I would never apportion greater sympathy on gender basis,a troubled life is no good
not for society,not for the individual,not financially. I favor rehab for suitable candidates
a small minority prisoners are deviant,dysfunctional and role prison is to remove their liberty and punitive sanction

[LineRunner]

God, I remember 'Eve Was Framed'. Changed my outlook, way back when.

[PortoDude]

I am very interested to know what proportion of crime is drug related. As I think our laws on drugs and tobacco and alcohol are all mixed up and need a radical overhaul.

[ellenjames]

don't do the crime if you can't do the time!

[LineRunner]

profound, dude

[PortoDude]

Yes, I have read Eve Was Framed too. The Criminal Justice system was set up and is mostly staffed with middle class men.

[PortoDude]

I have to say - I do not believe in going to prison for non-payment of fines. There must be a more suitable community based punishment. If the fine was for a violent or anti-social crime, then a short custodial sentence would have been more applicable in the first place.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Of course we're sending too many women to prison.

We are sending them there for crimes which when men commit them, don't usually get a custodial sentence.

This bollocks that people are spouting about how a vagina shouldn't be a get out of jail free card - well hey, a penis appears to be.

[HalloweenNameChange]

Don't think it should be a gender issue, However maybe it should be a resident parent issue (which is gender biased towards women though I know). If someone is a decent parent and has been conviceted on a non violent crime.. maybe a slight amount of leeway?

[HalloweenNameChange]

*Rather than separating a family and creating larger issues for society by taking children away.. I should elaborate.

[scottishmummy]

the poor wimmin, bad lasses lead astray by penis owners that clichéd appraisal doesnt help
both genders can have propensity for crime and deviancy.but in women criminality is considered more shocking
the accelerators into crime are poor literacy rate,poverty,abuse,dysfunctional childhood for both genders

[PortoDude]

I think we are better off concentrating on what crimes women commit and why they commit them. And comparing them to what crimes men commit etc.

[PortoDude]

I think women are automatically more harshly judged as us women just should not have criminal tendencies as we are luffly and love fluffy kittens and all that. I would hasten to bet that Maxine Carr - who killed no-one - is more reviled in the press than Ian Huntley.

[scottishmummy]

there are embedded social and psychological expectation and construct of women
digression and deviance from social norm is harshly judged
bit i dont think the female criminal justice experience is more deserving than that of a vulnerable male

[edam]

I just love the way misogynists have now perverted the language of equality so any attempt to look at potential gender discrimination is met with immediate howls of 'you aren't being fair to men!'.

Jeez. Doesn't take long for reactionary forces to absorb and pervert attempts to fight discrimination, did it? These days you can't even ask whether there are gender issues before you get multiple posts from people claiming merely posing the question is unfair to men.

Newsflash - in general, men are still hugely advantaged and women are still hugely disadvantaged on any measure you want to look at. Asking whether the criminal justice system is uniquely exempt from this phenomenon is hardly eccentric.

I do wonder whether the people who are so quick to deny that the possibility of sexism even exists in the context of criminal justice are equally vociferous in denying racism exists.

[scottishmummy]

is that a what about the menz dig?no one is being misogynist.is this a oi yiuse is anti feminist putdown
i dont feel specificity more disgruntled at the female criminal justice experience,than the male experience
systemically society fails the poor,those with poor social history,and poor educational outcomes. my immediate response to that isnt what about da menz, nor is it oh my god poor women gotten at by society and criminal justice

[PortoDude]

Could you repost in the English language SM?

[edam]

yes, prisons are full of people who have had shit lives but it is wilful blindness to refuse to see that there are distinct differences in the population of male prisoners and the population of female prisoners. Equality does not mean insisting that everyone is the same - we don't offer women prostate screening and we don't offer men cervical smears. You have to recognise gender issues just as much as race issues or disability issues, or age, or sexual orientation...

[scottishmummy]

your posts are littered with hyperbole and little digs
i dont have to see anything your way, nor do we have to concur
and no i need dont have a gender issue about it. i have a issue with how we treat disaffected,poor and marginalised individuals in society.not just wimmin

[GothAnneGeddes]

Edam - I completely agree. I'll probably get shouted at for this, but power structures affect you throughout your life, so the idea that the criminal system is some haven of gender equality, when it is certainly beset by both institutionalised racism and classim is just laughable.

[SoupDragon]

we don't offer men cervical smears

That may be because men don't have a cervix.

[MaeBee]

I work in prisons and whilst I'd generally veer in the idea that prison doesn't help reduce reoffending to any significant amount (about 70% reoffend within first year out again), the difference between male and female prisons is significant. i've worked in both, and am currently working in a male prison with domestic violence perpetrators.
prison doesn't work a lot of the time. That's just a fact. It's a very expensive (£40,000 a year) way of pleasing a population hungry for punishment and demonisation of the 'criminal' classes. it doesn't really deter crime and when we note that more than 60% of boys with a dad in prison go on to offend themselves we can see that actually the impact on kids can sometimes contribute to crime in our communities.
here are some facts:
The vast majority of women in prison are in for non violent crimes. More than 90%. A significant amount of that is non payment of fines. So that's financial reasons, which I'm sure even the thickest Etonian would recognise that there is a correlation with non payment of fines and poverty. Trust me, you'd pay if you could.
Women are sent to prison more readily than men. ?28% of women in prison had no previous convictions ? more than double the figure for men (13%).
Women are far more likely to be the primary caregivers. When men go to prison they are often (though not always) assured that their children remain in the custody of their female partners.The children suffer significantly, but not as significantly as when children are put in care.?It is estimated that more than 17,240 children were separated from their mother in 2010 by imprisonment. That's a lot of children you're punishing when you send a Mother to prison. and unless you have some weird notion of Biblical suffering for your parent's sins then that HAS to be thought about when giving a custodial sentence. cos we all know that children in care have much lowered life chances. 1in 4 women in prison grew up in care themselves.
there is also this: ?Women on remand makeup 18% of the female prison population. These women spend an average of four to six weeks in prison and nearly 60% do not go on to receive a custodial sentence.
so that, fellow mums, is saying that this are women who aren't sentenced to a custodial sentence, but still are separated from their children.
sometimes of course it is in the interests for children to be taken into care. of COURSE that's true. however, a lot of the time we are talking handling stolen goods, or really low impact petty crimes.

if you want to reduce offending because you want safer communities, if you want children growing up with more life chances, if you want damaged women given help not punishment, if you want to pay less taxes out of your own wages, then you look for other solutions. however, if you just want revenge whatever the cost because of some fantasy of "goodies" and "baddies" then go for it. lock em up.

[AmberLeaf]

Brilliant post MaeBee

[MoreBeta]

Yes I agree a very good post MaeBee.

Prison is an extremely blunt instrument. How do we differentiate between say persistent repeated offences such as petty theft to feed a drug habit (or even just because of mental illness) and theft which is oportunistic, premeditated and fuelled only by greed?

Both have the same immediate economic impact and hence both carry the same tariff. How can a judge sat in a court with only the facts of the case before them even begin to piece together extenuating circumstances and then consider putting together a whole package of support as an alternative to prison?

Where I think we fail is not so much in the handing out of a prison sentence as a basic essential deterent to others - but the bigger failure is making sure the person once released is not 'allowed' to go back to their former life.

Maybe a condition of release is close daily contact with a probation officer, mental health support, social services, welfare officer, etc. I know it is expensive but surely no more than prison.