Do we send too many women to prison?

[FrancesMumsnet]

We've been asked by the Prison Reform Trust (@prtUK) to find out what Mumsnetters think about women and prison.

Over 10,000 women were imprisoned in England and Wales in 2011, more than double the number 15 years ago. Eighty-one per cent of women sentenced to prison are there for non-violent offences.

New Ministry of Justice figures show that the self-harm rate for women prisoners is over ten times higher than for men. Over half of women in prison report having experienced domestic violence and one-third sexual abuse.

Over 17,240 children were separated from mothers serving time in 2010. An estimated two babies are born in English prisons every week, although data is no longer collected centrally.

In a YouGov poll, launched today by the Prison Reform Trust, treatment for drug and alcohol misuse and mental healthcare were the top solutions to get public backing for reducing non-violent offending by women.

Government research concludes that community sentences are more effective than short prison terms. Independent research shows that community women's centres provide a safe place for women to address underlying problems while maintaining care of their children.

The Prison Reform Trust is calling on government to support community solutions to women?s offending. They say that improving the system for women should also benefit men.

What do you think? Do we send too many women to prison for minor offences - or is it wrong to make this a gender issue? How should society strike the balance between the needs of children and their parents' behaviour? Should we send people to prison for non-violent offences? Do you have confidence in community sentencing?

The Prison Reform Trust provides advice and information, conducts research and works with government to create a just, humane and effective prison system. It relies entirely on voluntary donations. Watch the Prison Reform Trust's SmartJustice for Women film. Watch their 2012 lecture on women’s justice.

Thanks, MNHQ

[MoreBeta]

I was told by someone who worked with people in serious debt that a large number of women in prison were there for non payment of TV LICENCE.

If the BBC was cut right back to 25% of its current budget and paid for out of taxes then those women would not be in prison. Simple as that.

Does anyone know what proportion are in prison for not paying TV Licence?

[PortoDude]

MoreBeta, I agree that many more women are imprisoned for "financial" crime, which might involve not paying their TV license, shop lifting and minor fraud, or prostitution, and many of these crimes are committed by women trying to feed their families.

[PortoDude]

I am shocked at some of the responses here. Women tend to commit crime as they start off as vicitms anyway. Not ALL women of course. And not all men either. Some criminals are evil bastards - male or female - who need locking up. Some are habitual criminals. Many are people who genuinely need help of one form or another for whom prison is probably not the best end resort.

[madwomanintheattic]

I think the responses were generated by the extreme bias and lack of context in the op, Porto. And by the suggestion that merely by virtue of being women, they should be with their children.

Unhelpful.

What do you think would help? Presumably just keeping them out of jail wouldn't cut it, they'd still be nicking stuff and not paying their tv licenses. Maybe a concerted effort to get fathers to cough up? Direct billing to them for the tv licenses perhaps?

The argument about the very real issues concerning women and poverty are completely lost in the 'they should be with their children because they are mothers' line.

Do women without children feature in the argument? Or just the ones that have managed to breed?

It should be fine, really. If the women are in jail, the kids can stay with their daddies. now that would be interesting.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Marking place

[scottishmummy]

imo,consider cases and penal sentencing on individual basis not gender
most prisoners (male or female) have experienced abuse,low literacy, dysfunction
i would advocate a balanced,objective assessment and emphasis upon recovery and good mental health and social support for vulnerable prisoners in community.not just female prisoners

[alreadytaken]

women who commit crimes are less likely to be sent to prison than men and get shorter sentences www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/women-criminal-justice-system-statistics-representation

[FellatioNelson]

I agree with scottishmummy.

MB I find it very hard indeed to believe that anyone, male or female would be imprisoned for failure to buy a TV licence alone.

[PortoDude]

It's the failure to pay the resulting fine that causes people to be sent to prison.

[ratbagcatbag]

I really struggle. With the excuse that bad experiences mean it is understandable that people go on to commit further abuse/ violence.

I was beaten black and blue by my dad six days out of seven, and on the day he had off I was babysat by an uncle who sexually abused me for ten years, it took me a further 11 before I could go to the police about my uncle who is now on the sex offenders register and I have no contact at all with my dad.

I have never committed a crime, I have not beat anyone up or abused anyone as a result of what happened, so why do people think its acceptable to use it as a valid reason to explain or excuse someone's behaviour. You make your own choices in life and if that is you become an abuser then you should pay for that crime in line with the guidelines set out, whether male or female and kids or previous experiences should not dictate a lesser penalty.

[InNeedOfBrandy]

ratbag I am sorry for what happened to you, but you are the exception to the rule and good for you. I worked for a month temp in a YO unit and these poor boys and girls did really not know anything better, there was no comprehension that they could do better. So I can see IME why they would turn into adult offenders. I'm really glad you have made a life for yourself and didn't think fuck it and ruin it.

[MidnightKnitter]

what belle dame said at 18:16 and who knows said at 19:40. They have put it much more eloquently than i could, i'm out of touch with the stats. Iirc there is a strong correlation between a lack of psychiatric hospital treatment and increased prison population and that to me is an issue for both genders. Surely it is wrong that people are criminalised when what they need is treatment. Please feel free to correct me on that and yes i am aware that those with substance addictions can be difficult to treat and my need extended and repeat treatment.

[Cantervilleghost]

Ratbag, I can't even imagine what you must have been through but I agree with InNeed that many are not as strong as you.

I've had cause to visit women's prisons with work and it can be really shocking - dreadful abuse histories are just normal and (serious) self injury is absolutely rife. There are many caring staff who do what they can but they are not mental health experts and they are not trained to deal with people in such deep distress. I do not fully understand the arguments about sentencing and whether women are treated more leniently than men but I do know that what we have are women's prisons with an extraordinary concentration of inmates with deep deep problems (on all measures more so than in men's prisons) who are often released back into the same unsafe, abusive situations they came from. I've heard stories from staff about women who don't want to be released or who deliberately commit further offences to get back into prison because their lives outside are so chaotic and awful. Surely this cannot be right.

[ratbagcatbag]

Inneed - why I can possibly see what you're saying, there is a strong suspicion my uncle was abused ( he shared a room with his brother who also raped his own daughter) it was never officially used as a defence, why should he get a lesser sentence when he knowingly as an adult abused me? If he was abused then I am sad for him but he still made that decision to do it himself iyswim.

[InNeedOfBrandy]

No not a lesser sentence, in my ideal world he wouldn't of been abused either or it would of been picked up and he would of had real proper help.

I don't think anyone who is an abuser just wakes up an abuser and not a "normal" person one day I do believe they are made.

[Cantervilleghost]

I am definitely not suggesting someone should get a lesser sentence for a horrific crime if they disclose abuse or that people don't have agency, more that something is clearly going wrong further upstream if prisons (and particularly women's prisons) are full of mentally ill, drug addicted people very often with histories of abuse both in childhood and in adult life. What has been the trajectory of these lives if prison is the end result?

[MyNameIsInigoMontoya]

You need to get better information and some hard stats to make a meaningful point. Like, what percentage of men/women commit each type of crime, what percentage of each is sent to prison for that crime, and for how long, for a start.

I did read something a while back suggesting that women were much more likely than men to be imprisoned if they had carried out certain types of minor offences, such as not paying fines. If so, that is clearly wrong - why should women be punished more harshly for the same offence?

I also think in many cases prison is not appropriate for these very minor offences, for men or women, particularly where their families will also be affected. And from the little information you have given about mental/abuse issues, it does sound like a very sad situation where many of the people involved (and their families/society) would be better served by helping them with these issues than by imprisoning them.

Talking vaguely about "non-violent" offences is rather misleading. Non-violent offences could cover anything from not paying a fine, to robbery or fraud on a massive scale. I don't think anyone would suggest the latter shouldn't be punished by imprisonment, even if it's not violent!

In an ideal world, of course, prevention through intervention and support to people with problems (where possible) would be better than prison... though of course that's much easier to say than to implement.

[DialMforMummy]

I think the op is very badly written. Some men in prison also have experienced sexual abuse and domestic violence. I am sure some self harm too.
Do we send too many women to prison for minor offences - or is it wrong to make this a gender issue?
It is wrong to make it a gender issue. However the background of someone who has committed a crime might be relevant and therefore taken into consideration.
How should society strike the balance between the needs of children and their parents' behaviour?
I am not sure, but I am certain that not punishing a criminal because he/she is a parent is not a good example to set to the children.
Should we send people to prison for non-violent offences? I am not sure, what does the law say?
Do you have confidence in community sentencing? I don't really have an opinion on that one.

[edam]

Eighty-one per cent of women sentenced to prison are there for non-violent offences.

That suggests we are locking too many women up. I believe there are significant differences in the population of women prisoners v. the population of male prisoners which means it is importnat to look at the gender issues.

There are some suggestions that women are treated more harshly than men and more likely to be imprisoned for lesser offences - would need more detail to be sure about that but the stuff I've seen in the past argued that women are punished not only for the crime but for trangressing - women are expected to be 'good' while aggression and violence are seen as 'masculine' traits. All this would be unconscious bias of course, I don't imagine judges or magistrates sit there and think overtly 'she's a woman, she's been bad, that's worse than a man being bad'.

[harrietspy]

Simple answer: yes.

I used to work in a prison. A huge proportion of women in prison grew up in care, have been sexually or physically abused, have serious addictions. A huge proportion have massive mental health issues. Prison is a horrible environment no matter how well-intentioned the governance, and it just doesn't work. It makes everything worse. Locking people up might satisfy our understandable need to see crime punished, but it's incredibly expensive and ineffective - both as a deterrent and as rehabilitation. Why don't we spend a proportion of the money it costs to keep women in jail in trying to effect real behaviour change in the community?

Gender is relevant. More women than men are lone parents. The more women who are locked up, the more children's lives are dramatically disrupted and disturbed.

[Lougle]

"*In the 12 months to June 2011 80% of women entering custody under sentence had committed a non-violent offence, compared with 70% of men."

This is meaningless unless you know what proportion of men/women committed violent crimes, what proportion of men/women committed non-violent crimes and what the custody rates were for each, proportionally. All this tells you is that more male prisoners committed violent crimes than women.

"*28% of women in prison had no previous convictions ? more than double the figure for men (13%).

I want to know why the incarceration rates for women with no previous convictions is so much higher for women then men. It seems to me that women are still judged more harshly then men. "

Again, meaningless, unless you can see stats for how many men/women out of prison have no previous convictions. It may be that men in general have more convictions than women. Also, it only carries meaning if the same crime is being punished by prison for women vs community service for men.

[LittleWhiteWolf]

[http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/prisons-and-probation/prison-population-figures Current figures for the week of the 23rd] :
Men: 81,984
Woman: 4,174
Total: 86,158
Operational Capacity for England and Wales: 90,995

Don't want to read and run (but have to), but haven't the time write now to go into the points I want to make, but there's a breakdown if anyone was interested.

[mollymole]

IMO it is the level of crime that is relevant to the sentance not the sex of the criminal.

[SleeplessinStortford]

I think it's a disgrace that we punish the most vulnerable people in our society instead of helping them. Many people have miserable lives and little opportunity to improve them. Many women, and many mothers, are in a cycle of disadvantage which is too difficult to break. Helping these women instead of punishing them would benefit them, their families and society as a whole. Money spent on prisons should instead be spent on preventing offending in the first place, and rehabilitation.

[SleeplessinStortford]

My opinions are the same for male prisoners too, but the point is surely that by imprisoning women, there is more likely to be a disproportionate effect on children, and cycles of disadvantage are made worse. It's completely valid to bring gender into the argument because some women are more vulnerable or disadvantaged because of their gender or because they have children.