Those schools that have rules like "you must not take your blazer off even if it is 30 degrees" - why?

[HerBeatitude]

I'm genuinely interested.

It seems so obviously unpleasant and unfair - adults sitting in short sleeves while kids are sitting there sweating and not allowed to make themselves more comfortable - that I'm always astonished when I hear about schools that have that kind of rule. I wonder what sort of adults would think it's a good idea to treat children so unkindly and with such a lack of respect and consideration. But there must be some educational or behaviour philosophy to it, mustn't there? I presume they don't just do it because they're all mad, so they must have some kind of thought-out reason as to why this is a good idea. Can anyone shed any light?

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[Cortina]

At Bedales (don't have kids there but know some that do) the no uniform and calling teachers by their first name rule seems to really work. Few discipline issues etc. I was surprised that an indep school has this policy but it seems very liberal through and through.

[stressheaderic]

We've just introduced blazers this year (80% in favour parental vote), and I was dreading the enforcement/consequences issue - but pleased to report all pupils are in full uniform every day and are enjoying looking a bit smarter, have yet to see a blazer-less child...
The first thing I do at the beginning of every lesson is say 'feel free to take your blazers and/or jumpers off if you are hot or uncomfortable'...common sense really.

[choosyfloosy]

It sounds like the army - is the point of all the uniform stuff in the army to create a unit out of a diverse bunch of unrelated people, and to have a reasonably harmless route by which designated authorities enforce rules equally to everyone, so that the unit gets used to obeying said designated authorities? I've never been in the army so I'm only going on films and whatnot.

I don't really know if I think that's a good thing or not. [ponders] I think if I were a teacher, I'd be keen on a strict uniform school, but i now prefer to avoid them as a parent. Maybe I'll change my tune when ds is older.

It used to make me weep with frustration, the pointlessness of our uniform at school and the carpet-chewing pointlessness of arguments about uniform.

[Morosky]

Campion I did teach in a school like that, have taught in 2 actually and I did find it stretched to behaviour. I am also quite anal and picky so it suits me to work in a school that reflects me.

I am always barking about top buttons

[campion]

I think you'd find my school a bit lax, Morosky, as the pupils do pride themselves in looking a bit scruffy ( in a slightly studied sort of way). Not quite grunge but not far off - they like to see how far they can push it and, personally, I'm only bothered by things like unsafe shoes, hair in the eyes, nail varnish and dangly ear rings as they can present real problems.

It does depend on the type of school, I think, and we're fortunate to have motivated pupils who come to school to work hard ( mostly).We staff dress appropriately ( though I'd be a bit if anyone tried to impose a dress code) and just get on with the job. I understand what you're saying about the unwritten message about discipline but I got rather fed up with the pettiness that this engendered in a previous school ( v large comp)where staff seemed to spend a lot of time barking at kids about top buttons.

But keeping kids in blazers on a hot day is just ridiculous, as I'm sure we all agree.

[BonsoirAnna]

I think uniform has its pros and cons. However, uncomfortable clothing that is inappropriate for the climate and does not meet current standards of dress, as uniform too often is, is inexcusable.

[katiestar]

At my DS s school they have to wear a blazer, top buttond done up and tie on all the time in corridors & assembley hall, but can ask permission to remove blazers in the clasroom (but not ties or top buttons).I think that this can be justified interms of respect.Dressing smartly is a sign of respect for your teachers,like standing up when they enter the classroom Making yourself look more casual is less respectful - hence the need to ask permission first.But ir is unacceptable for a teacher to sy no and if it happened to one of my kids I would be complaining.

[Morosky]

Our male teachers - I am sure - always have to wear a tie. I agree that the tie should be kept on but should be loosened. A tie afterall does not make you hot. However making them wear blazers in such weather is daft.

[tatt]

Morosky - last time we had a heat wave the pupils had to wear blazers and ties at our school (even the girls). The teachers were in short sleeved shirts - and tieless. None of the teachers would turn up in naything totally inappropriate but if male teachers aren't wearing ties it is unreasonable to expect students to do so.

I would have been quite happy if they had let them all take their ties off.

[Morosky]

Parents also have to come in to collect jewellery, mobile phones etc.

I agree unquietdad, our funniest little rule is about coats. As soon as you get into school you put your coat in a locker where it remains until the end of the day. However if it is heavy rain the headmaster will declare it a wet day - coats can then be worn between buildings. But we have to wait for a wet day to be declared, despite the fact that many of us teach in classrooms with floor to ceiling windows that make up at least one wall of our room. We can see if it is raining. But our tweeness makes us us I suppose.

I don't think we have ever been a sink school but we are certainly a school improving at a fast rate.

[UnquietDad]

I went to a school like that. Blazer on, tie done up, at all times. To be fair the teachers were expected to wear jacket and tie as well! We had to wait for the Headmaster's edict to come down before "summer uniform" was allowed (open-necked shirts).

It's good to have uniform, but also good to be a little bit flexible...

[bruffin]

Your school sounds like my DC's school Morosky. It was a sink school 7 or 8 years ago and a new headmaster turned it around. It's now a one of the most improved school in the country. It's actually a lovely school where children are happy and enthusiastic. From what I can gather the first thing they did was clamp down on the uniform.
The DC's carry an expectations card, any uniform breaches / forgotten equipment get marked on the card and more than a certain amount of demerits earn a detention.
Last summer we had a letter home during heatwave to say they didn't have to wear their blazers to school. Teachers can and do give permission to take blazers off in lessons.

My DD has just started yr7 earned her first mark on her expectation card today, she forgot to take her bracelet off last night and was wearing it in school. It was confiscated and I will get a letter home and i will have to pick it up personally, which is unlikely as the school is 6 miles away.

[Morosky]

I don't see any reason at all HerBeatitude, I think that is inhumane and not a good example to set to children.

That is interesting Herbeatitude, my experience is just as anecdotal. I know in the 2 schools that I worked in that were not universally strict about uniform they were always setting detentions for uniform beacuse the students knew in some lessons they could get away with it and in others they could not.

I go on about uniform in the sense that when I am at the door greeting my pupils I ensure their ties are correct, top buttons are done up, skirt the right length etc. But I only have to say once and it is done. I do not start to teach if uniform is not correct but I rarely have to wait because I have usually corrected it at the door. All teachers do this ( or should do) so there are not students wandering around with incorrect uniform who will then get detentions.

If a student turns up with a serious inform fault they are put into isolation immediately. I have a year 11 tutor group, in the last 2 years I have had to do that once. In my previous school a good 1/3 would have been in isolation.

[HerBeatitude]

Interesting that you say schools which aren't strict about it are the ones which have to keep going on about it.

That hasn't been my experience, I went to 2 secondary schools, one was a sink school which was v. strict and constantly giving detention about uniform infringements and one was an excellent ex-grammar turned comp, where they were quite casual about it but had v. good behaviour overall.

But I accept that my experience is anecdotal and may not be representatative.

[HerBeatitude]

I find your arguments plausible Morosky. But what about this situation where children are not actually allowed to politely ask if they may remove their blazer/ jumper? Is there any reason for that?

[Morosky]

Tatt - Our staff are expected to dress in a business like manner, as are the sixth form. We would be spoken to if we did not.

As a teacher if I were choosing a school for my daughter I would look at uniform, if it were not worn properly I would not be impressed. TBH I would rather see no uniform than one that is not enforced. Children need clear instructions, you are sending mixed signals if you say we have a uniform but we don't care how it is worn.

Campion because we are so strict about our uniform we spend very little time having to enforce it, they know we mean business. It is schools who are lax on uniform that have to keep returning to the issue.

[Morosky]

Have not read all the thread as I am popping in during a marking break.

I teach in a school with very strict uniform rules, we would not make them wear blazers/jumpers in such conditions though. We are quite twee and will have an official announcement from above of "Today is a warm day so you can undo your top button" If I am ever uncomfortably hot or teaching in a t shirt and know it is warm I always say to my students take off your blazer - we have jumpers insteads. I would not obect if a student asked me to remove their jumper, it would seem daft to do so.

I do think that strict uniform, conduct rules create order which in turn affects discipline and therefore learning. I have taught in schools that did not "sweat the small stuff" and they were chaotic places where pupils thought they could do what they wanted. If you walk around our school it is calm and purposeful, in part because of the many little rules in place. ( Off the top of my head, top button always done up (unles it is a declared hot day) school bags in lockers and students carry books, jumpers on, correct staircases for up and down etc) B

So yes it is control but not pointless control.

I was discussing this very matter with my tutees today - over haircuts.

[HerBeatitude]

But wait.

Is that the reason for the rule then?

So that children won't lose their blazers?

If not, hand me back that prize.

[HerBeatitude]

Cornsilk well done - you're the only one so far who has managed to find something positive.

[Heated]

I can't get that irate about a strict uniform policy, probably because I work in a school that has one, but putting 30 people together in close quarters in the height of summer with no air con is imo unreasonable working conditions.

[cornsillk]

Thank God for that rule I say. Ds would have lost several blazers by now without it.

[HerBeatitude]

Bumping for anyone who might be able to present a positive spin on this.

[HerBeatitude]

Well yes that's what I thought.

But I am mystified as to what logic the school management are using and I was wondering if there is any justification for it. I find it very hard to believe that in this day and age, schools go in for rules like this and I just want to get some idea of what the people who work in schools with rules like this, think they are achieving and why it is a Good Thing.

Am waiting for some of the teachers to come on and give me the rationale. So far nobody has yet said why the rules exist, apart from for control. And nobody has contradicted the idea that it is just for control. Surely there must be someone out there who can cogently argue in favour of these things? Otherwise, why are schools still doing this?